Go Obama!!!

[blackguy32]

Thats 10 in a row now. If Hillary doesnt win both Ohio and Texas, then she is finished.

[ReutherMonkey]

she'll win Texas. I expect to be ashamed of my home state yet AGAIN.

[Liebgott]

Thank god someone is else is for Obama


If Hilary wins, I'll vote Republican.

[Cheeto]

I don't see how Hillary can win Texas. Most of the people down here seem to think that she's either a shrew or that it would be like putting Clinton back into office. Oddly enough, I imagine that a black man with a scary a-rab name would do better than Hillary.

Now Obama VS McCain on the other hand...

[Dr. Crawford]

Thank god someone is else is for Obama


If Hilary wins, I'll vote Republican.

agreed

[jow]

Thank god someone is else is for Obama


If Hilary wins, I'll vote Republican.

agreed

same. though i still may go mccain, we'll see how the campaign goes

[blackguy32]

I dont know. McCain is quickly turning into Bush the 2nd. I mean at first he was against waterboarding, but now he is quickly towing the party line.

[HS the Whap]

I am going to write in Shellshock/Adolf Hitler

[Burris]

CHANGE ^_^! YAYYYYYYYYY!

[jow]

disagree. most hard core rightwing guys hate him. He's pretty moderate, I think the only thing I really strongly disagree with him on is his stance on abortion. But I refuse to let bullshit social issues rule how I vote for the commander and chief. My vote goes to who will protect the country and represent the interest of the people. Not who MIGHT sign a bill that MIGHT do something that I think is lame, when in reality the issue is more a legislative problem. If I want to have my views on abortion, marriage, etc etc to be heard, I'll be sure to vote in elections for my state senator, not the national elections.

[Burris]

I love this far reaching mythos that Obama is a moderate. Oh please. He's Hillary Clinton, male version, except he wants to bomb Pakistan..

[HS the Whap]

I am also thinking of an Ortiz/Brady combination, that way the New England sports world can rule the free world.

[Liebgott]

I love this far reaching mythos that Obama is a moderate. Oh please. He's Hillary Clinton, male version, except he wants to bomb Pakistan..

like bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran

John McCain is a fucking Idiot

[Capn Jobe]

I love this far reaching mythos that Obama is a moderate. Oh please. He's Hillary Clinton, male version, except he wants to bomb Pakistan..

like bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran

John McCain is a fucking Idiot

What are you talking about, he's the only politician with the cajones to make a joke like that. You don't honestly think he meant that, do you?

edit: Not to say that he might not, in the future, support war with Iran. Just saying that his joke is hardly a means by which to gauge his politics.

[Liebgott]

I love this far reaching mythos that Obama is a moderate. Oh please. He's Hillary Clinton, male version, except he wants to bomb Pakistan..

like bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran

John McCain is a fucking Idiot

What are you talking about, he's the only politician with the cajones to make a joke like that. You don't honestly think he meant that, do you?

Who knows if he was or not, he changes his stance so many times I don't even know where he stands now. plus, how can he run a country when re basically ran his camping into the gorund.

[pornbeard]

im voting for mccain as it is, but if he has to run against someone, i really want it to be obama. the chance of hillary in the white house gives me strokes.

[WHEATLEY007]

I'm finding it interesting what your all saying as we are realy only getting the media's slant on it over here in the UK.

Do you think Obama could win the WhiteHouse? Is America ready for a black president when it still seems to be a country where people still often define themselves by their skin colour and therefore their belongings to those particular groups.

Its funny that its been said Hillaries worst point is that it reminds too many Americans of their first wives.

I'm like alot of people on Europe, hopefull of a more worldly inclusive America, that realises that going it alone is not necessarily a long term success, but when I hear people stating that who they vote for would be their 'commander in cheif' (realy, who makes up titles like that ??) it seems that things are little changed.

If Blair had ever called himself something like 'commander in cheif' we'd have laughed even more at him and he'd have lost even more credibility.

[Invig]

If Blair had ever called himself something like 'commander in cheif' we'd have laughed even more at him and he'd have lost even more credibility.

Then you really should study more up on the U.S. Because the "Commander in Cheif" refers to his military title. Its not just some stupid name.

If you want to hear a stupid title, the instructors at airborne school are all called Sgt. Airborne. Now thats retarded

[ReutherMonkey]

I'm finding it interesting what your all saying as we are realy only getting the media's slant on it over here in the UK.

Do you think Obama could win the WhiteHouse? Is America ready for a black president when it still seems to be a country where people still often define themselves by their skin colour and therefore their belongings to those particular groups.
Frankly, i think the race issue is blown out of proportion. Most of the voting Americans just don't give a shit about race anymore. I'd contend that most of the people who do care about race are among the 40% that never votes anyways.

Its funny that its been said Hillaries worst point is that it reminds too many Americans of their first wives.

I'm like alot of people on Europe, hopefull of a more worldly inclusive America, that realises that going it alone is not necessarily a long term success, but when I hear people stating that who they vote for would be their 'commander in cheif' (realy, who makes up titles like that ??) it seems that things are little changed.

If Blair had ever called himself something like 'commander in cheif' we'd have laughed even more at him and he'd have lost even more credibility.
Well Commander in Chief is one of the numerous official roles/titles of the President of the United States. http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A2Sec2 He is conferred that title as the head of the military.

I agree with your intent though - it'd be nice to have a president who didn't act like a child with G.I. Joes.

[Azevedo]

I love this far reaching mythos that Obama is a moderate. Oh please. He's Hillary Clinton, male version, except he wants to bomb Pakistan..

Winner.

[Burris]

I'm finding it interesting what your all saying as we are realy only getting the media's slant on it over here in the UK.

Do you think Obama could win the WhiteHouse? Is America ready for a black president when it still seems to be a country where people still often define themselves by their skin colour and therefore their belongings to those particular groups.

Its funny that its been said Hillaries worst point is that it reminds too many Americans of their first wives.

I'm like alot of people on Europe, hopefull of a more worldly inclusive America, that realises that going it alone is not necessarily a long term success, but when I hear people stating that who they vote for would be their 'commander in cheif' (realy, who makes up titles like that ??) it seems that things are little changed.

If Blair had ever called himself something like 'commander in cheif' we'd have laughed even more at him and he'd have lost even more credibility.

Your queen is head of the military is she not....

President = our head of state
Monarchy = yours

They're not that much different.

[Zirconium Blade]

Your queen is head of the military is she not....

President = our head of state
Monarchy = yours

They're not that much different.

Not really, she has to green light any major army movements but ultimately its the PM and his cronies doing all the work.

[Burris]

In practical terms that's exactly what our president is supposed to do. But since Korea that hasn't been the general use.

[WHEATLEY007]

Your queen is head of the military is she not....
President = our head of state
Monarchy = yours
They're not that much different.

Actualy they are quite different. The queen (wether your a monarchist or not, and I sure aint) is 'the people'. Thats kinda why she says 'we' not 'I'. Unlike years ago, when the king, or queen was the highest authority in the land, and had overall say in the governing of the country, these days they are representative of the people, and are the final 'top' echelon of authority.
They (king or queen) cant make laws, nominate law makers, or act in their own interests. However, they have the ability to remove government and government has to seek their authorisation to create government. When Tony Blair won the election many moons ago from the other party, one of his primary tasks is to go to the queen and say something along the lines of 'the people have voted for me, may I set up government'. In the last century, the queen dispanded the Australian government (for she plays the same role there and possibly i Canada) as that was the wish of the people.

So, unlike the USA President who is 'head of the army', our PrimeMinister isnt, the Queen is , and therefore the army is seperate from the controlling government. Not like ol' Tony acted like that when we went off to Iraq.

/ explanation over & cheers for not taking my earlier questions the wrong way. :thumbsup:

And yes, calling yourself Sgt:Airbourne is weird.

[Cole]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

I'm passing on the Democrat/Republican bs, Its nothing more then two sides to the same coin dicking around figuring out new ways to take away more and more Liberty and Freedom, I happen to like My Liberty and Freedom and for that reason voting based on party or just to keep the other guy out would be contributing to My own demise, Especially when All the MSM candidates are bought and paid for and bitches to the CFR, U.N, and Bilderberg just to name a few, I prefer My leaders to also only pledge allegiance to one country, Their own...
And focus not on kissing ass or pandering or finding new ways to waste my money, but rather uphold the oath they took upon coming into office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, T do this means protecting theLiberties and Freedom you may not agree with, If thats a problem then you shoudltn not be lyign under oath or runnign for office.

ALL the MSM candidates have histories of going completely against their sworn oath, tolerating and partaking in the continuous abuses and usurpations of our liberties,
Governments only purpose is to protect your rights, thats it, Yet they have given themselves the power through this BS Ochlocracy, to limit, restrict, and dictate liberty as if its a Privilege...

Quite frankly, what I do, own, say, and believe is my business and my business alone, and No Man, Majority, or Government has the right to tell me otherwise, and until I use My Freedoms and Liberties to harm others, Then leave Me, My property, And My money the hell alone.


No thanks, I'm not going to help build my own cage and dig my own damn grave.

[Verhaden]

^ Dear God. There's not a big enough rolleyes smiley for that statement.

Anyway, I'm voting for Hillary if it comes down to it.

I wanted to vote for Bill Richardson, BUT NO.

[Liebgott]

If you don't vote, you are denying you're freedom, so don't bicth if they get taken away if you decide not to act.

[Cole]

If you don't vote, you are denying you're freedom, so don't bicth if they get taken away if you decide not to act.

Who said anything about not voting?

And fyi, One doesn't need to vote to be free, remain free or have his rights protected, The Constitution does this,Rather its supposed to, voting has no effect on freedom in a REPUBLIC, if it does then well, somethings wrong.

YOU should know this.

[Liebgott]

If you don't vote, you are denying you're freedom, so don't bicth if they get taken away if you decide not to act.

Who said anything about not voting?

And fyi, One doesn't need to vote to be free, remain free or have his rights protected, The Constitution does this,Rather its supposed to, voting has no effect on freedom in a REPUBLIC, if it does then well, somethings wrong.

YOU should know this.

True, but it sounded like you weren't gonna vote, I guess I just read it. But people complain about what they don't like the politicians are doing, yet if you ask they voted, most likely they will say no, so they have no right to complain.

[Azevedo]

If you don't vote, you are denying you're freedom, so don't bicth if they get taken away if you decide not to act.

Who said anything about not voting?

And fyi, One doesn't need to vote to be free, remain free or have his rights protected, The Constitution does this,Rather its supposed to, voting has no effect on freedom in a REPUBLIC, if it does then well, somethings wrong.

YOU should know this.

True, but it sounded like you weren't gonna vote, I guess I just read it. But people complain about what they don't like the politicians are doing, yet if you ask they voted, most likely they will say no, so they have no right to complain.

They have every right to complain considering the system elects who has the better media and campaign blitz, not the best platform. There's a reason why a crapload of our presidents have been matters of 'compromise' and not principle. Do you honestly feel Republicans will be cheery when their decision come election time is either McCain or Hillary? Lesser-of-the-two evils does not a good president make.

[jow]

This thread is beginning to reek of BAAAAAAAAWWWWW

[Crispulus]

This thread is going to dive real quick into Mr. Dr. Ron "Gold Standard" Paul, isn't it?

BACK TO TO OBAMANIA.


He's got Texas. The gap is well within the margin of error. He's been improving and once he gets in full gear there... you'll see. Expect latinos to suprise you. Clinton's power base is in the officals she's calling in favours on.

Worst case scenario Obama loses by under 4% difference and split the delegates.
What will likely happen is Clinton might be slightly ahead in the primary there, but Obama will will the Texas caucus. He loves the caucus.

[AFG]

This thread is going to dive real quick into Mr. Dr. Ron "Gold Standard" Paul, isn't it?




I voted for Ron Paul when CA had our primaries :D


But it looks like I'm going to be voting for McCain come Nov.

[Liebgott]

You have to compromise no matter if you have 2 parties or 10 parties, you have to compromise to pass legislation, it may not be exactly what you wanted, but when you bring in both sides in our case, you get the majority of the people.

[Burris]

I'm so excited from some charismatic, energetic, CHANGE! ^_^

I think I'm going to plant flowers and shit rainbows! ^_^

[jow]

I'm so excited from some charismatic, energetic, CHANGE! ^_^

I think I'm going to plant flowers and shit rainbows! ^_^

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

[Stellar]

President = head of state, chief legislator

Prime Minister = chief legislator
Queen = Head of state

Head of state is more of symbol of gov't and country. That's what the queen is for England.

[Penguin]

This thread is beginning to reek of BAAAAAAAAWWWWW
OBAAAAAAAAWWWWWMA '08!

[AFG]

Question: What are superdelegates and why only the Dems get em?

[WHEATLEY007]

^ Dear God. There's not a big enough rolleyes smiley for that statement.

You beat me to it. I thought I was reading a statement by either Koresh at Wako or some other armed vigilanti group, or even a mad Mullah.

Why the "I'll vote for whoever is in mine and my peoples interests - to hell with everyone else!" ?

[Cole]

You beat me to it. I thought I was reading a statement by either Koresh at Wako or some other armed vigilanti group, or even a mad Mullah.

Why the "I'll vote for whoever is in mine and my peoples interests - to hell with everyone else!" ?

This is in response to?

[WHEATLEY007]

Especially when All the MSM candidates are bought and paid for and bitches to the CFR, U.N, and Bilderberg just to name a few, I prefer My leaders to also only pledge allegiance to one country, Their own...
And focus not on kissing ass or pandering or finding new ways to waste my money, but rather uphold the oath they took upon coming into office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States,

Maybe I read you wrong, but that how I firstly read it :shrug:

[Cole]

Maybe I read you wrong, but that how I firstly read it :shrug:

So I take it you like it when your leaders can and are influenced by a select and elite group of powerful people and foreign leaders with special interests, rather then the interests of the country?
And attend there little secret meetings, which is in direct violation of the Logan Act?
But thats ok I guess...

And I take it you like your leaders to pander to you and kiss your ass, just to make you feel all nice and warm inside, then go off and do something completely contradictory to what they told you just to get your vote and approval?

And I take it you like billions and billions of dollars to be used to fund the most idiotic things, and I'm not even talking about the war, thats a whole other thread...

And I take it the oath our leaders take

President

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Congress

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter

ect ect ect...

Going against this oath is perjury, Rather or not they have committed perjury is easy to find out, look at their records, And not only that but its treason.

I guess this is ok with you?




But I guess I'm the crazy one here... I'm weird I guess...

[Cole]

Why the "I'll vote for whoever is in mine and my peoples interests - to hell with everyone else!" ?

Nothing in my post comes close to this belief.

[Crispulus]

HAY GUISE! viewtopic.php?f=2&t=159 (http://www.themesshall.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=159)


I was driving back to work and I saw someone with a Clinton tag and started yelling "Obamania all up in the place!" I wish someone had heard my insane yelling.

[Mr. Burns]

McCain's help for the economy: http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/18/news/ne ... /index.htm (http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/18/news/newsmakers/tully_gramm.fortune/index.htm)

I don't know much about Obama's economic ideas, but this article makes me even more likely to vote for McCain this fall. Anyone who will veto a bill because of the pork barrel crap in there gets major kudos from me. Even more than that, someone who is willing to break with his party because he doesn't agree with them or because he actually wants to get something done is likely to get my vote.

[Liebgott]

I'd vote for McCain in a heartbeat if he didn't want to stay in Iraq for 100 years.......

[Mr. Burns]

I'd vote for McCain in a heartbeat if he didn't want to stay in Iraq for 100 years.......
That quote was taken out of context. He was just saying that we need to stay as long as it's in our best interest to and as long as the Iraqis need us to be there.

[Liebgott]

I'd vote for McCain in a heartbeat if he didn't want to stay in Iraq for 100 years.......
That quote was taken out of context. He was just saying that we need to stay as long as it's in our best interest to and as long as the Iraqis need us to be there.

True, but we already don't need to be there, so everyday that goes by is a waste of money and lifes, when we can't even support our own fucking ecnomny and people, yet we can spend trillions on a shitty country.

[ReutherMonkey]

He's got Texas. The gap is well within the margin of error. He's been improving and once he gets in full gear there... you'll see. Expect latinos to suprise you. Clinton's power base is in the officals she's calling in favours on. The Latinos killed Obama in Cali, and they could do the same in Texas. I'm of the opinion that Texas Latinos will support him more than Cali ones did, but I still think they'll side with Hillary, which will swing the state into her camp.

Question: What are superdelegates and why only the Dems get em?
Superdelegates are party officials who get their own vote in the convention. All of us little people merely get a representative at the convention (delegate) - they ARE their own representative (superdelegate).
I actually hate superdelegates.


I'd vote for McCain in a heartbeat if he didn't want to stay in Iraq for 100 years.......
That quote was taken out of context. He was just saying that we need to stay as long as it's in our best interest to and as long as the Iraqis need us to be there.That quote wasn't taken out of context at all. It just isn't politically appetizing, but it needs no context (because the rest of the speech struck the same tone). McCain wants our grandchildren to die in Iraq because Iraqis don't care enough about their own damn country.

[Mr. Burns]

That quote was taken out of context. He was just saying that we need to stay as long as it's in our best interest to and as long as the Iraqis need us to be there.That quote wasn't taken out of context at all. It just isn't politically appetizing, but it needs no context (because the rest of the speech struck the same tone). McCain wants our grandchildren to die in Iraq because Iraqis don't care enough about their own damn country.[/quote]
I agree that it's not a good situation we're in, but the next president will have to deal with it somehow. And are Americans being killed in Germany right now? They're the grandchildren of the guys who fought in WWII. What about the guys in Okinawa and Korea? Granted they're not the same situations, but assuming Iraq actually wants to become a real country with an economy and their own police force and such, the Americans will eventually be less threatened on a day-to-day basis than they are now.

[Liebgott]

Well Iraq doesn't want to be a real country, and it never will no matter what, because people over there take religion too seriously. Germany is a different story, because we arn't occupiers, we don't tell them what to do or how to run their country or give them trillions on dollars.

Iraq is a fucked up situaiton where we just need to get out, if they want democracy, they will work for it themselves, we did, when we were founded we didn't need support from some other country.

[Burris]

I hope America doesn't turn into a Germany and be afraid to stand up for itself.

[Rob]

Well Iraq doesn't want to be a real country, and it never will no matter what, because people over there take religion too seriously.
Greetings and salutations, ethnocentrism!

[Burris]

Iraq is largely secular. Still, when 20%~ of your population is Extreme Right wing theres a problem.

[Liebgott]

Well Iraq doesn't want to be a real country, and it never will no matter what, because people over there take religion too seriously.
Greetings and salutations, ethnocentrism!

I don't look at the world from the view of my own culture, I know there are other ucltures out that and I understant them, but when you take it to the point of blowing yourself up, blowing women and children up, blowing disabled people up, decaptiaing and torturing people to death in the name of religion anad because they don't want a government, then something is FUBAR.

[Rob]

Well Iraq doesn't want to be a real country, and it never will no matter what, because people over there take religion too seriously.
Greetings and salutations, ethnocentrism!

I don't look at the world from the view of my own culture, I know there are other ucltures out that and I understant them, but when you take it to the point of blowing yourself up, blowing women and children up, blowing disabled people up, decaptiaing and torturing people to death in the name of religion anad because they don't want a government, then something is FUBAR.
Pretty broad stroke to paint "Iraq" with, don't you think?

[ReutherMonkey]

That quote was taken out of context. He was just saying that we need to stay as long as it's in our best interest to and as long as the Iraqis need us to be there.That quote wasn't taken out of context at all. It just isn't politically appetizing, but it needs no context (because the rest of the speech struck the same tone). McCain wants our grandchildren to die in Iraq because Iraqis don't care enough about their own damn country.
I agree that it's not a good situation we're in, but the next president will have to deal with it somehow. And are Americans being killed in Germany right now? They're the grandchildren of the guys who fought in WWII. What about the guys in Okinawa and Korea? Granted they're not the same situations, but assuming Iraq actually wants to become a real country with an economy and their own police force and such, the Americans will eventually be less threatened on a day-to-day basis than they are now.
Germany's quite different, as it not only had experience with democracy *before* 1945 (unlike Iraq before 2003) which made it far easier to reinstate a democracy rather than create one from the ground up, but it also was completely devastated from allied bombing which destroyed the notion of eventual German superiority. Hell, many Iraqi citizens don't even take pride in being Iraqi, considering it didn't even exist until Great Britain and France arbitrarily drew lines in the sand and called it "Iraq". There was no movement by "Iraqi" Arabs to make their own country. They were just Arabs. They still identify as Arabs first, Iraqis second. Again - entirely unlike the Nazis which were driven by a fierce nationalism. The only real Iraqi nationalist was hung two years ago.

Not that our "bringing" democracy was anything new in the first place. While the media (not surprisingly) forgets to mention this, there are two (technically) secular democracies in the middle east - Israel and Turkey. If Arabs wanted democracy, they need only look at their neighbors.

As for our soldiers in Germany and Okinawa and dozens of other countries - they frankly shouldn't be there either. While I immensely enjoyed my 4 years in Germany on the taxpayers' bill, only one of the bases in Germany is of any necessity - Ramstein AFB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramstein_AFB). Bases in Iraq would serve no purpose in the region because we *already* have bases in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE, etc..., and Israel is more than happy to keep an eye on our interests in the region also. Bases in Iraq would serve no practical, tactical, or strategic purpose, while only furthering the #1 recruiting reason for terrorist groups: United States intervention in the affairs of sovereign nations.

[Burris]

Iraqi's could do a lot to help stop the suicide bombing problem.

Most of them are apathetic, or even tight lipped about what they know.

[Liebgott]

Its happening in Iraq isn't it? The locals know who is involved with whats happening, but arn't speaking up, maybe because they are scared, or perhaps they support the Islamic extreamists.

[ReutherMonkey]

Its happening in Iraq isn't it? The locals know who is involved with whats happening, but arn't speaking up, maybe because they are scared, or perhaps they support the Islamic extreamists.
either way, I don't really care. They're trying to kill each other, not us. If we stay, they'll still try to kill each other. If we leave, they'll still try to kill each other. I say leave, and see how much they actually care about their country.

[Liebgott]

Its happening in Iraq isn't it? The locals know who is involved with whats happening, but arn't speaking up, maybe because they are scared, or perhaps they support the Islamic extreamists.
either way, I don't really care. They're trying to kill each other, not us. If we stay, they'll still try to kill each other. If we leave, they'll still try to kill each other. I say leave, and see how much they actually care about their country.

I agree with you completely

[Bismarck]

Iraqi's could do a lot to help stop the suicide bombing problem.

Most of them are apathetic, or even tight lipped about what they know.

I imagine most of them are scared of being murdered violently. Living in a warzone with sectarian violence does that.

Nobody wants to be the first one to come forward and rat on Don Corleone, you know what I mean?

[Rob]

Its happening in Iraq isn't it? The locals know who is involved with whats happening, but arn't speaking up, maybe because they are scared, or perhaps they support the Islamic extreamists.

I have a feeling you'd be afraid to speak up too, if your enemies were so fucking loony that suicide bombs were an acceptable tactic. I know I would be.

[Liebgott]

Its happening in Iraq isn't it? The locals know who is involved with whats happening, but arn't speaking up, maybe because they are scared, or perhaps they support the Islamic extreamists.

I have a feeling you'd be afraid to speak up too, if your enemies were so fucking loony that suicide bombs were an acceptable tactic. I know I would be.

If it got that bad, I'd go tell the Americans or who ever that I have information if they can protect me, or just move my ass away if i said something.

[WHEATLEY007]

Iraqi's could do a lot to help stop the suicide bombing problem.
I imagine most of them are scared of being murdered violently. Living in a warzone with sectarian violence does that.


Bingo.

Some pretty broad assumptions are being made here about Iraq. Firstly, to assume that all the people are apathetic to the idea of a democracy in that country is a little unfair. For a true democracy to work you need the education of the people, something with has been denied to them for quite some time. Most probably don’t know what a true democracy is and just want to get on with keeping their heads down, feeding their families and not getting caught up between us the insurgents. There are an unprecedented number of Iraqi's joining up for the security forces, even though they are the most at risk from harm.
Secondly, the poorer the people, the more likely that religion will pay a larger part of their lives, as it gives them guidance and hope etc. Breaking through that to create an independent democracy like ours is a mammoth task and at the moment quite impossible.


….. when you take it to the point of blowing yourself up, blowing women and children up, blowing disabled people up, decaptiaing and torturing people to death in the name of religion anad because they don't want a government, then something is FUBAR.

Allot of these insurgents are not actually Iraqis. Unsurprisingly, British Intelligence has been saying that they have noted Brummy & Geordy accents (north of England), while listening to them on the radios. So bombing children and other Iraqis is just a means to and end for them.


everyday that goes by is a waste of money and lifes, when we can't even support our own fucking ecnomny and people, yet we can spend trillions on a shitty country.

If it aint on a shity county, our governments are either wasting money or sticking it in their own pockets, money that could be put to such better use. I think we all, no matter what political preference or country of residence, agree with that.


I hope America doesn't turn into a Germany and be afraid to stand up for itself. German ‘standing up for itself’ got us two world wars. Its also easy to say that when you’re the biggest in the playground with no current equal. This wont last. History and nature confirms this.

[Liebgott]

Atleast the money would stay with Americans and in the American economy, not being wasted with no return on a country that is so corrupt that ministers are helping the insurgents.

[WHEATLEY007]

^^ Thats a reasonable point. Harsh, but understandable.

[Rob]

Its happening in Iraq isn't it? The locals know who is involved with whats happening, but arn't speaking up, maybe because they are scared, or perhaps they support the Islamic extreamists.

I have a feeling you'd be afraid to speak up too, if your enemies were so fucking loony that suicide bombs were an acceptable tactic. I know I would be.

If it got that bad, I'd go tell the Americans or who ever that I have information if they can protect me, or just move my ass away if i said something.

American soldiers have better things to do than run an international Witness Protection Program, and they're certainly not going to bother unless something comes of the tip. Which is rather unlikely, given the nature of the insurgency.

Move your ass? Good luck with that one. You know what the average yearly per-capita income is in Iraq? $876–$1,675 (as of 2005, what does that tell you about the state of economics there?), with an 18-30% unemployment rate as of 2006. You can't just up and move if you're dirt poor, especially if you have a family. Iraq isn't exactly "the land of opportunity", if you have any kind of income you stay there so you can, you know, eat.

[Liebgott]

I didn't say soldiers, they have programs set up that deal with this, so they are out there. And if they can pack up whatever the have and walk to another country, like millions of others have already done, so you can't say that they can't move.

[Rob]

I dunno about you, but given a choice between staying in my home in fear or else living in an overcrowded refugee camp in Syria or Iran where food isn't always guaranteed and privacy is utterly forsaken, most people would probably stay at home.

Not to mention that you're not guaranteed a spot in said refugee camp. These countries only take a certain number of people. What do you do if you abandon your job, your home, and your income to trek halfway across the country and then you're left high and dry with a starving family looking at you for answers?

[Liebgott]

I dunno about you, but given a choice between staying in my home in fear or else living in an overcrowded refugee camp in Syria or Iran where food isn't always guaranteed and privacy is utterly forsaken, most people would probably stay at home.

Not to mention that you're not guaranteed a spot in said refugee camp. These countries only take a certain number of people. What do you do if you abandon your job, your home, and your income to trek halfway across the country and then you're left high and dry with a starving family looking at you for answers?


Well you either starve to death or get your head cut off, pick your poison. Now I'm not saying that if you stay you will die, its just that its a lose lose situation, and the people had better lives under Saddam Hussein, they got food and had power more then 30 mins a day

[Bismarck]

Well you either starve to death or get your head cut off, pick your poison. Now I'm not saying that if you stay you will die, its just that its a lose lose situation, and the people had better lives under Saddam Hussein, they got food and had power more then 30 mins a day

Let's look at the bigger picture though. Why are you forcing yourself into this choice between risking starvation or being murdered by militia? And for whom? The Americans? The country that most likely is only there in your country so they can set up a government to make oil concessions? You want to risk your life for a foreign occupying army?

People talk about how Iraqis don't care about their country, but maybe they feel they're the only ones who really truly do. They, after all, have to live in it. At the end of the day, nobody in this thread will have to live with the hell that Iraq has become. That's not true of these same people we're talking about.

[Steffmeister]

I wonder who the Iraqis would vote for if they were allowd to count as a US state :3

[ReutherMonkey]

Move your ass? Good luck with that one. You know what the average yearly per-capita income is in Iraq? $876–$1,675 (as of 2005, what does that tell you about the state of economics there?), with an 18-30% unemployment rate as of 2006. You can't just up and move if you're dirt poor, especially if you have a family. Iraq isn't exactly "the land of opportunity", if you have any kind of income you stay there so you can, you know, eat.
Iraqis have been leaving since 2003. Ask Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. And frankly, if you're dirt poor and don't have much more than the shirt on your back and the AK in your hands, it really aint that hard to move. catch a ride on a truck, get a mule/camel, and off you go.

Just looking at the per-capita income doesn't give you a realistic picture of their living capabilities, because it doesn't take into account the actual cost of living.

[ReutherMonkey]

Well you either starve to death or get your head cut off, pick your poison. Now I'm not saying that if you stay you will die, its just that its a lose lose situation, and the people had better lives under Saddam Hussein, they got food and had power more then 30 mins a day

Let's look at the bigger picture though. Why are you forcing yourself into this choice between risking starvation or being murdered by militia? And for whom? The Americans? The country that most likely is only there in your country so they can set up a government to make oil concessions? You want to risk your life for a foreign occupying army?

People talk about how Iraqis don't care about their country, but maybe they feel they're the only ones who really truly do. They, after all, have to live in it. At the end of the day, nobody in this thread will have to live with the hell that Iraq has become. That's not true of these same people we're talking about.
Let me clear this up, I'm not faulting the Iraqis for the situation in Iraq. I certainly fault the United States (and the majority of Americans who supported this horrible abuse of military force). However, a mission to create a "peaceful democracy" in Iraq is unrealistic at best. The only successful, self-sustaining democracies are ones which have had popular support from the ground up - that is, from the populace itself. Not from some outside force. Our presence there helps no one. We are incapable of protecting every Iraqi from sectarian violence, and we are ill-suited to fostering a democracy. Frankly, we gotta get our own shit straight.

The only solution, imo, is to get the hell out, and whatever happens happens. We did as much as we can realistically do - the Iraqis have to do the rest. If they want democracy, they have to fight for it like the rest of us had to. But if they don't even believe in the ideology, they won't fight for it. And if they don't fight for it, they never wanted it in the first place.

[Burris]

The Middle East's idea of a stable democracy has always been laughable.

Despite what the Turks would tell you, their democracy is far from a true democracy.

[Liebgott]

Well you either starve to death or get your head cut off, pick your poison. Now I'm not saying that if you stay you will die, its just that its a lose lose situation, and the people had better lives under Saddam Hussein, they got food and had power more then 30 mins a day

Let's look at the bigger picture though. Why are you forcing yourself into this choice between risking starvation or being murdered by militia? And for whom? The Americans? The country that most likely is only there in your country so they can set up a government to make oil concessions? You want to risk your life for a foreign occupying army?

People talk about how Iraqis don't care about their country, but maybe they feel they're the only ones who really truly do. They, after all, have to live in it. At the end of the day, nobody in this thread will have to live with the hell that Iraq has become. That's not true of these same people we're talking about.

A country that is giving your country the money to take care of them, but if they support the radicals and in turn supports corruption in the government to better their cause, then they are forcing themselves into that corner. People who deploy to Iraq for 7 months - 2 Years have to live there and experience it first hand, now it may be different, but the attacks are targeted at them, so they see a different, but still very violent Iraq

[Liebgott]

I wonder who the Iraqis would vote for if they were allowd to count as a US state :3

Probably McCain to keep us there forever

[ReutherMonkey]

The Middle East's idea of a stable democracy has always been laughable.

Despite what the Turks would tell you, their democracy is far from a true democracy.
Hence why I said "technically" when referring to the Israelis and the Turks. We're not in much position to judge though. While we don't like to throw around the word "corrupt" in the US, our system certainly is filled with lobbyist-paid senators and representatives.

[ReutherMonkey]

McCain's help for the economy: http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/18/news/ne ... /index.htm (http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/18/news/newsmakers/tully_gramm.fortune/index.htm)

I don't know much about Obama's economic ideas, but this article makes me even more likely to vote for McCain this fall. Anyone who will veto a bill because of the pork barrel crap in there gets major kudos from me. Even more than that, someone who is willing to break with his party because he doesn't agree with them or because he actually wants to get something done is likely to get my vote.
I've seen that article's rhetoric before, and it got Bush elected to the presidency. While McCain is (amazingly) one of the more fiscally responsible of the Republicans, he doesn't go nearly far enough in freeing Americans of the burden of government, and he has a history of going against individual freedoms.

[Burris]

I'm so excited for change! Watch out Pakistan!

[PoolShark]

I fucking can't stand change. I mean I'd rather just carry a debit card around to avoid change all together. What the hell am I supposed to do with all those pennies and nickels? You can't buy shit with 5 cents anymore!!!

Oh yah, I'm voting Obama.

[Liebgott]

I fucking can't stand change. I mean I'd rather just carry a debit card around to avoid change all together. What the hell am I supposed to do with all those pennies and nickels? You can't buy shit with 5 cents anymore!!!

Oh yah, I'm voting Obama.


I have a huge bag of dimes and nickels and pennies and quarters.... I plan to take them to the bank one day.

[Crispulus]

Goddamnit.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=173 (http://www.themesshall.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=173)

Go there and talk about Iraq.

BACK TO OBAMLAMADINGDONG.


Texas latinos and Cali latinos are completely different. Also the latino districts are not weighted as much as black districts in Texas in regards as delegates go.

[AFG]

"If I was President, I'd get elected on a Friday, assassinated on Saturday, buried on a Sunday, go back to work on a Monday..."

"President" by Wyclef Jean

[Liebgott]

I wish all Illegals would get out on the country and come back legally or not at all.....

[Burris]

I wil not vote for Obama because I know if people die in Afghanistan he'll make us leave there too. Which I'm strongly against.

He's a coward. (But all for bombing Pakistan!)

[ReutherMonkey]

I wish all Illegals would get out on the country and come back legally or not at all.....
easier said than done. And I know first-hand that a LOT of jobs in Texas and Arizona would stay vacant if they "got out". Either that or prices would skyrocket for basic goods.

We're already paying more for gas - raise your hand everyone who wants to spend a helluva lot more for produce, meat, and fast foods!

The only way to get illegals out and get them legal/documented is to have a major overhaul of our western hemisphere immigration policies (or use soviet/nazi style house-to-house raids, violating the 4th Amendment). Until that happens, the illegals won't be deterred.

[Penguin]

We're already paying more for gas - raise your hand everyone who wants to spend a helluva lot more for produce, meat, and fast foods!
I will if it means that fewer people are exploited and smuggled in like human cattle.

[ReutherMonkey]

We're already paying more for gas - raise your hand everyone who wants to spend a helluva lot more for produce, meat, and fast foods!
I will if it means that fewer people are exploited and smuggled in like human cattle.
*only* immigration reform can stop coyotes. A wall will only make the costs higher, and make them more ruthless. It will also make the illegals who need coyotes to get into the US even more in debt thanks to a higher charge for crossing.

[Cheeto]

We're already paying more for gas - raise your hand everyone who wants to spend a helluva lot more for produce, meat, and fast foods!
I will if it means that fewer people are exploited and smuggled in like human cattle.
*only* immigration reform can stop coyotes. A wall will only make the costs higher, and make them more ruthless. It will also make the illegals who need coyotes to get into the US even more in debt thanks to a higher charge for crossing.
Unless we went mad max and started hanging coyote parts along the wall as a warning when we catch them. But that might look bad to the UN.

[Liebgott]

Just build a Berlin Wall on the border with machine guns and snipers and land mines lol.

Seriously, we have to do something, cause I am so pissed that we have to have ballots in Spanish for voting, we should not have to do that.

[Bismarck]

If you really want to improve the immigration situation, work to end the vicious American exploitation of Mexican capital. Almost all business down there is American-owned. If you feel that Mexican labor is creating problems here, it's only because American capital has created problems there.

At the end of the day, when you've got kids to feed and you can't make enough money to do so, you don't really care whether or not some guy on the other side of the border wants you in legally or not at all, because they're your children. So the problem won't ever end by making it harder.

Actually, the harder you make it for illegals to cross the border, the much more likely you are to get illegal immigrants to stay long term. Back in the day, migrant workers used to come north, work for the summer and then return home. But now, it's way too difficult to get across the border again, so if you make it once you can't risk it, and they end up staying for years, sending home what support they can.

[Liebgott]

So basically get rid of Nafta?

[Bismarck]

Just build a Berlin Wall on the border with machine guns and snipers and land mines lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fechter



Seriously, we have to do something, cause I am so pissed that we have to have ballots in Spanish for voting, we should not have to do that.

Okay, two points. If you don't mind legal immigrants, just the illegal ones, then the ones who are voting are probably not the problem.

Second point, there have been people speaking Spanish in this country since before there were English speakers.

[Bismarck]

So basically get rid of Nafta?

That's part of it, but there's more to it than that. Simply cutting out NAFTA isn't going to undo a lot of the damage. The thing is, American exploitation of the Mexican market isn't a new thing. One of the things that pissed off Pancho Villa so much way way back in the day was how American businessmen were making a shitload of money off of the oil and silver on Mexican soil, while Mexican peasants had nothing of their own.

This is a very old problem, with it's roots in the earliest settlement of the Americas. Simply expecting people to line up on one side of the border or the other isn't very realistic, especcially since so much of what is now the US was in fact once Mexico.

[Liebgott]

Just build a Berlin Wall on the border with machine guns and snipers and land mines lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fechter



Seriously, we have to do something, cause I am so pissed that we have to have ballots in Spanish for voting, we should not have to do that.

Okay, two points. If you don't mind legal immigrants, just the illegal ones, then the ones who are voting are probably not the problem.

Second point, there have been people speaking Spanish in this country since before there were English speakers.

Yes, but our constitution is not written in Spanish, and our National Language is English, if immigrants want to come here and live, then learn fucking English.

[Bismarck]

Yes, but our constitution is not written in Spanish, and our National Language is English, if immigrants want to come here and live, then learn fucking English.

Point in fact, we have no national language. And as I already pointed out, there have always been people in this country who spoke Spanish as a first language, they didn't need to "come here" to do so. They just WERE here. Since always.

And furthermore, the Constitution YOU read is printed in English because you read English. There is no rule that says the Constitution can only be in English, nor should there be, because the Bill of Rights is extended to ALL citizens regardless of their demographic identity, and not enabling citizens who speak Spanish as a first language to participate in the democratic process because of their language is anti-democratic.

This isn't something that happened because people hopped the border, Lieb. There were populations in the Southwest who spoke Spanish for hundreds of years prior to the American annexation, and technically speaking, you're the one who came into THEIR country without speaking the language.

[Burris]

bismarck, that's ridiculous. Our de facto national language is English, to be a citizen you need to comprehend (aka speak it) English. You're missing the ball on the entire scope of this issue.

The original Spanish populations were never large enough to be a sizable minority prior to the immigration occurring. Texas was roughly 40% Mexican during the revolt against mexico. To suggest because "They were here first" that all that come here after have the right to speak Spanish above all else, and we must bend to this is just ludicrous.

I supposed you might possibly support that crazy "Aztec" group that wants to bring California back into Mexico or declare the independence of Alta-California? The anti-assimilation attitude of a sizable minority of hispanics is downright frightening.

Do you see Hispanic congressmen going up to the floor and speaking in Spanish, and everyone's expected to cope and just learn Spanish? No. Because these statesmen understand the concept of JOINING your fellow citizens and not remaining a special group within the society.

When I have people in my 300 level English class that can't read English, it pisses me off. This isn't a matter of their "Democratic rights" or whatever phrase you used.

[Bismarck]

bismarck, that's ridiculous. Our de facto national language is English, to be a citizen you need to comprehend (aka speak it) English. You're missing the ball on the entire scope of this issue.

Or perhaps I have another perspective. That could be too, I guess.



The original Spanish populations were never large enough to be a sizable minority prior to the immigration occurring. Texas was roughly 40% Mexican during the revolt against mexico. To suggest because "They were here first" that all that come here after have the right to speak Spanish above all else, and we must bend to this is just ludicrous.

Forced assimilation is cultural hegemony. Cultural hegemony is racism.



I supposed you might possibly support that crazy "Aztec" group that wants to bring California back into Mexico or declare the independence of Alta-California? The anti-assimilation attitude of a sizable minority of hispanics is downright frightening.

Aztlan. I know people who have had some involvement of it but it's not my movement. Ironically the guy I knew who was into it most is no longer a fan of cultural nationalism.

But I will say that what I find downright frightening is the idea that anti-assimilation is of itself somehow an evil. Multiculturalism is not an evil and we can have a bilingual culture. They somehow manage in Canada, I hear.



Do you see Hispanic congressmen going up to the floor and speaking in Spanish, and everyone's expected to cope and just learn Spanish? No. Because these statesmen understand the concept of JOINING your fellow citizens and not remaining a special group within the society.

I never argued that immigrants should not learn English. I am fully in support of English being taught as a second language just as much as I'd be in support of teaching Spanish as a second language. But let's not act as if they're somehow ruining the nation with their horrible Iberian cant.


This isn't a matter of their "Democratic rights" or whatever phrase you used.

Since we're talking about making ballots unlegible for a sizable minority of citizens, how do you figure?

[PoolShark]

The problem isn't illegals... The problem is the buisnesses hiring them and paying them 3 dollars an hour to work for them. If they were made legal then businesses would be forced to pay them at least minimum. Okay, so now they would have a choice to make, hire a non english speaking person for the same price you hire an english speaking person. Who do you choose? I bet you'd choose the english speaker. Okay there we go problem solved.

As far as Romney wanting to boot them out (but give them time to leave if they're in school... ((Fucking retard)) That's a horrible idea. And it's all just idle talk. Think about it.

1.) If we knew who these people were they'd be deported anyway. So don't talk about deporting people as if its that's easy.
2.) So if we really tried to get this done, how is this even logistically possible?

Lets say we know who they are. What do we do? I have an idea

(BEGIN SARCASM)... Lets round them ALL up and put them in major refugee camps in every major city. That would at least get them ready to be deported. And I don't want our tax dollars going to having them staying at the 4 seasons either. They're going to sleep in tents durring hot summers and cold winters. Water will be there... Maybe food... I'm not sure, but it'll be ALMOST as good as the Japanese internment camps.

Now we'll transport them. I got a great idea for this one... How about just like when the Nazis rounded up the jews we can put them all on train cars! And the ones that don't fit on train cars we'll march them across the nation! It'll be a new Trail of Tears! And in 100 years we'll have a bitchin new string of state parks! Then once they're all over in mexi-co then or where ever brown people come from, we'll get all the latino people to put on shock collars and we'll build an invisible fence that shocks them when they try to cross the border! Problem fucking solved! (END SARCASM)

Seriously people... How the fuck do you propose we do this? These aren't clay pots or latin rugs we're talking about here... They're fucking people, and the US has to start considering HUMAN DECENCY

[blackguy32]

Jesus, all the xenophobia flying around is mind boggling. Also, we shouldnt stress assimilation, but accommodation. No, they should not have to be JUST like us to stay here. Many of the people you say "refuse" to assimilate don't even plan on staying here that long and the ones that do end up staying here fuse with American values quite nicely. I wonder what will people do when hispanics make up a sizable majority of our country?

[Burris]

[quote=Burris]bismarck, that's ridiculous. Our de facto national language is English, to be a citizen you need to comprehend (aka speak it) English. You're missing the ball on the entire scope of this issue.

Or perhaps I have another perspective. That could be too, I guess.



The original Spanish populations were never large enough to be a sizable minority prior to the immigration occurring. Texas was roughly 40% Mexican during the revolt against mexico. To suggest because "They were here first" that all that come here after have the right to speak Spanish above all else, and we must bend to this is just ludicrous.

Forced assimilation is cultural hegemony. Cultural hegemony is racism.



I supposed you might possibly support that crazy "Aztec" group that wants to bring California back into Mexico or declare the independence of Alta-California? The anti-assimilation attitude of a sizable minority of hispanics is downright frightening.

Aztlan. I know people who have had some involvement of it but it's not my movement. Ironically the guy I knew who was into it most is no longer a fan of cultural nationalism.

But I will say that what I find downright frightening is the idea that anti-assimilation is of itself somehow an evil. Multiculturalism is not an evil and we can have a bilingual culture. They somehow manage in Canada, I hear.



Do you see Hispanic congressmen going up to the floor and speaking in Spanish, and everyone's expected to cope and just learn Spanish? No. Because these statesmen understand the concept of JOINING your fellow citizens and not remaining a special group within the society.

I never argued that immigrants should not learn English. I am fully in support of English being taught as a second language just as much as I'd be in support of teaching Spanish as a second language. But let's not act as if they're somehow ruining the nation with their horrible Iberian cant.


This isn't a matter of their "Democratic rights" or whatever phrase you used.

Since we're talking about making ballots unlegible for a sizable minority of citizens, how do you figure?[/quote:3t7vdrd3]

*sigh* Cultural Hegemony? No one is telling them to stop being Catholic, or Mexican, or whatever. As a matter of language when it hinders others that's bullshit.

[Bismarck]

*sigh* Cultural Hegemony? No one is telling them to stop being Catholic, or Mexican, or whatever. As a matter of language when it hinders others that's bullshit.

Hinders others? How the hell is your life inconvenienced by there being people speaking, horror of horrors, Spanish in your country? What thing could you otherwise do that you cannot do tomorrow because of these Spanish-speaking American nationals?

That's what is so ridiculous about this whole thing, getting up in arms over something that need not affect you at all. Being part of the cultural majority you are in no position to be hurt over this.

[TylerDurden]

Oboma is going to end up being a joke on late night t.v.

[Liebgott]

*sigh* Cultural Hegemony? No one is telling them to stop being Catholic, or Mexican, or whatever. As a matter of language when it hinders others that's bullshit.

Hinders others? How the hell is your life inconvenienced by there being people speaking, horror of horrors, Spanish in your country? What thing could you otherwise do that you cannot do tomorrow because of these Spanish-speaking American nationals?

That's what is so ridiculous about this whole thing, getting up in arms over something that need not affect you at all. Being part of the cultural majority you are in no position to be hurt over this.

When I go to a store or restaurant and I have to talk so someone who doesn't know English or speaks it horribly, it affects me.

[blackguy32]

I can name some native born english speakers who speak it horribly. Not to mention that we live in a free market, so if you dont like that the people there dont speak english, you can always go somewhere else. Truthfully, I live in South Texas, a place that is predominantly hispanic, and I have rarely if ever had any trouble ordering anything. Also, I believe you are only required to learn basic conversational english to gain citizenship

[Liebgott]

I can name some native born english speakers who speak it horribly. Not to mention that we live in a free market, so if you dont like that the people there dont speak english, you can always go somewhere else. Truthfully, I live in South Texas, a place that is predominantly hispanic, and I have rarely if ever had any trouble ordering anything. Also, I believe you are only required to learn basic conversational english to gain citizenship

Well it needs to be tougher then, and the people who are born here and can't speak it need to move from out of the back woods and into a real city with real teachers who can teach proper English.

[blackguy32]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/2 ... 88194.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/24/hillary-clinton-mocks-bar_n_88194.html)

Also,

http://img.waffleimages.com/ca6e62714c3 ... DC0419.JPG (http://img.waffleimages.com/ca6e62714c31e6dfdc8d9820a8db20ae2ac75271/MYDC0419.JPG)

Linked due to table breakage

[SWK]

The fact of the matter is that not being able to speak English in this country effectively prevents an individual from participating in the greater society. Even if ballots are written in Spanish, 95% of other forms of media/communication are solely in English. This means that in order to listen to and exchange ideas with the rest of the US, an individual needs to be able to read and write in English. In not learning English immigrants effectively disenfranchise themselves.

[Liebgott]

The fact of the matter is that not being able to speak English in this country effectively prevents an individual from participating in the greater society. Even if ballots are written in Spanish, 95% of other forms of media/communication are solely in English. This means that in order to listen to and exchange ideas with the rest of the US, an individual needs to be able to read and write in English. In not learning English immigrants effectively disenfranchise themselves.

Thank god someone was able to put into words what I was thinking and could not do.

[Ginger Lord]

I'm not sure what the fuss is over the ballots being in Spanish/English. Our ballots over here are make a mark in the box, it even gives you a picture to show you what to do.

I'm pretty sure Barack Obama and Hilary Clinton arnt spelt differently in Spanish.

Whats the fuss here? Do you yanks have some ludicrously hard system to vote?

[Liebgott]

I'm not sure what the fuss is over the ballots being in Spanish/English. Our ballots over here are make a mark in the box, it even gives you a picture to show you what to do.

I'm pretty sure Barack Obama and Hilary Clinton arnt spelt differently in Spanish.

Whats the fuss here? Do you yanks have some ludicrously hard system to vote?


No, but when they are voting on issues, and the ballot has information on that issue, then it is in Spanish

[Liebgott]

or how about the fucking irony of an American Citizen test being in Spanish!?!??!?!