The effects of Zionsim

[jordan]

Food for thought;

http://www.ifamericansknew.org

[Rob]

Since the subject's on the table, I'll repost this here...

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5545/palestine2007rq7.gif

[Cole]

Sadly the numbers don't mater no one cares, and no one is going to open their mouths because if they do it makes them anti semitic, Since WW2 no one dare say anything about the Jews because of how bad they were treated, I'm sorry its not an excuse for the humans rights violations Israel continues to pile up on a daily basis...
But it sure makes it easy for Zionists to take advantage of this and get away with it...




UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992
1. Resolution 106: "... 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation""
13. Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'
31. Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians" 39. Resolution 471: "... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "... 'reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'"
41. Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
42. Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops" 55. Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.


The following are the resolutions vetoed by the United States during the period of September, 1972, to May, 1990 to protect Israel from council criticism:
1. ....condemned Israel's attack against Southern against southern Lebanon and Syria..."
2. ....affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections..."
3. ...condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians..."
4. ....called for self-determination of Palestinian people..."
5. ....deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most world nations and the United Nations..."
6. ....affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people..."
7. ....endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people..."
8. ....demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights..."
9. ....condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations..."
10. ....condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem..."
11. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon..."
12. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Beirut..."
14. ....urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon..."
15. ....condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace..."
16. ....deplores Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal..."
17. ....condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression...."
18. ....denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the occupied territories..."
19. ....deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon..."
20. ....deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites..."
21. ....condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane..."
22. ....deplored Israel's attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon..."
23. ....called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations..."
24. ....urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices..."
25. ....condemned Israel's... incursion into Lebanon..."
26. ....deplored Israel's... commando raids on Lebanon..."
27. ....deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians..."
28. ....deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians..."
29. ....demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian intifada..."
30. ...called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands..."-


17Hv6C4rziU

[Cheeto]

I love UN resolutions. They actually think anyone cares about them.

[jordan]

I feel bad for the Palestinians

The U.N.: "Hey Palestine, a lot of Jews got killed in the Holocaust"
Palestine: "Yes, and that was a very unfortunate event and we feel sorry for them"
The U.N.: "Well now you're going to have to move, they're occupying your territory now"

Lobby groups like AIPAC have convinced the american voter that we are allied with Israel; we break our backs for them, what do they do for us (beyond ruin our relationship with arab nations and plunge us further into debt?)

[Burris]

This site forum is pretty surprisingly liberal.

Look, Israel's not going to give up an ounce of land until the arabs stop being fucking nuts over this shit. (I don't care what you say about "occupied lands" they had a chance to get a nation state and they turned it down because they thought they could annihilate the jews)

I hate to break it to you, but statistics on deaths of children comparative to nations do not mean SHIT. Israel had a right to exist and when people are launching rockets at them from borders they have the right to retaliate. But go ahead, talk about how lovely Palestine is, essentially a corrupt oligarchy/terrorist state and how they just want their nation yet they do nothing to prove they want peace.

All hail the Palestinian "Freedom fighters"

I could post a thread about the "effects of terrorism" but that would just make me look like a close minded "republican" right? :rolleyes:

[Rob]

This site forum is pretty surprisingly liberal.

Look, Israel's not going to give up an ounce of land until the arabs stop being fucking nuts over this shit. (I don't care what you say about "occupied lands" they had a chance to get a nation state and they turned it down because they thought they could annihilate the jews)

Perhaps a little more detailed study is in order.

Zionists (note: I differentiate here from "Jews") had been buying up land and lobbying the European powers for a Jewish homeland as early as 1897.

The Zionist movement found significant support in 1914, from the British government, in the form of military units made up primarily of Zionist volunteers wanting to fight the Ottoman Turks and advance the idea of a Jewish homeland. This same group was a significant part of the British military forces which conquered Palestine in the wake of the First World War. (Wiki: Jewish Legion, if you're curious)

Four years after the war ended, 1922, Great Britain was given the mandate over Palestine specifically for (and I quote): "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home".

Throughout the 1930s, the rise of Nazism meant the continued exodus of European Jews. By 1936, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 500 000 Jews had relocated to Palestine. Half a million people in under 40 years. Perhaps inevitably, the Palestinean Arabs revolted against Britain's rather open-door policy with regards to immigration into their country.

What followed was the White Paper, which at first glance appears to be rather racist in its declarations. But it seems, rather that it was a phased attempt to transfer immigration responsibility out of British hands and into that of the Arabs of Palestine.

Was this law followed? Of course not. With what was going on in Europe at the time, it shouldn't come as any shock that a movement started to encourage and operate illegal immigration. This happened in two phases. The first, illegal immigration in violation of the statute, roughly 1933-42. The second phase, accepting displaced European Jews. By the end of the war, the Jewish population in Palestine had skyrocketed to a full third of the population. Not bad for a mere 50 years of immigration.

Soon after the war, Britain withdrew from their Mandate and handed it over to the new United Nations. Who, of course, promptly drew up a map finally giving a state to the Zionists: Israel.


Perhaps it's time to halt for a minute, and point out a couple of common threads throughout this half-century history lesson. 1) Continuous Western intervention in a place where people were already living and who did not WANT foreign intervention. 2) Continuous Zionist intervention and meddling in a place where people were already living.


It really ought to come as no shock that the Arabs would be a little pissed by now. Enter the Arab-Israeli War. 700 000 Arabs are forced to flee Palestine in the conflict. And in the aftermath, this illegitimate, invader state is accepted into the United Nations and recognized by the Western powers as the legitimate authority in the region. Talk about getting kicked while you're down.

Less than 10 years later, Israel enters into a secret alliance with France and (wait for it) Great Britain, against their Arab neighbours in Egypt. In the ensuing conflict, Israel captures the Sinai and doesn't withdraw until promised shipping rights in the Red Sea and the Canal.

Ten years after that, Israel launches a pre-emptive war and seizes Gaza and the West Bank--territories populated by Palestinean Arabs--as military conquests, in direct contravention of post-WW2 worldwide agreements that military conquest of territory is an international crime.

And what did the UN and the West do to stop this rampaging child they'd created in someone else's yard? Right...absolutely nothing.

Add this 75 years of mistreatment, abuse, and neglect of the local population by both the West and the Zionist movement to the last 35 years of continued abuse by the "legitimate" authority in the country and you have some very pissed off people. You reap what you sow, and it should come as no shock or surprise to anyone that they're lobbing rockets at Israelis all the time.

It's an illegitimate state, founded on racist government and legitimized by colonialist military force and the tacit continued moral approval of those same original colonial powers. To say that Palestineans "had a chance to get a nation state and they turned it down" is the nothing but the height of cultural arrogance and smug superiority, with what appears to be a touch of ignorance thrown in, just for good measure.

[jordan]

This site forum is pretty surprisingly liberal.


If liberal means totally revising our middle east foreign policy, then so be it I'm liberal, but as far as other issues are concerned I wouldn't call myself liberal at all. Do you watch foxnews?

[Rob]

Bonus trivia: the population of Israel (including the Occupied Territories) is today over 75% Jewish, with a whopping 20% Arab population as their largest minority.

[Burris]

I don't care what arab is mad. The Israelis immigrated there, they agreed to a two state solution, Palestine and the rest of the arabs did not, they lost, they're bitter about it.

But yes, theres a vast Zionist conspiracy, of course, totally logical. allah'u ackbar my friend.

Racist? Are you aware of the Arabs in the Israeli parliament? You're the only one that sounds racist.

The arabs that choose to stay in Israel? The Beduoins who ASKED Israeli to allow them to be drafted?

Your opinion on the matter is utterly bias and utterly clouded by one of the many stupid pro palestinian lobbies.

Alas, I fear I"m going to be the only one who denounces the "Freedom fighters" so, I doubt I'll make another appearance in this bias bullshit.

LOL Fox News, like it matters what news network you watch? You're just as close minded as the stupid republicans.

Yes, let's revise our middle east policy, allow the jews to be wiped out, because statistics show children die.

[Rob]

I don't care what arab is mad. The Israelis immigrated there, they agreed to a two state solution, Palestine and the rest of the arabs did not, they lost, they're bitter about it.
:orly:

Some foreigners came in, and some other foreigners backed their claim to change everything in their favour?

I hope you're not one of those types who gets all up in arms when someone wants to wear a turban on the job that requires no/alternative headwear, or who bitches and moans that Christmas is succumbing to the influence of foreigners and different religious types not wanting to be offended. That'd make you one hell of a hypocrite, wouldn't it?

[Ska Wars]

Israel had a right to exist and when people are launching rockets at them from borders they have the right to retaliate.

Oh please. Some half fed milita fire what is little more than a spear with a firework attached at a border village and Israel responds with cluster bombing the capital. And if you really wanna play the retaliation card, read some history or atleast the news first.

I'm all for the existence of Israel as a state. What I'm not for is the use of illegal weapons, illegal warfare and the deliberate targeting of civilians by a government who hides behind their religion if anyone cries foul. This is the same state who spends millions a year chasing war criminals, yet covers up for their soldiers when they say, I dunno, shoot a UN worker on a bloody mobile phone from hundreds of yards away because he looked 'dangerous'.

Yet again, us Western Euros fucked up when we created a country (Arabia a la 1918/19 anyone?) and are sooo suprised when things get bloody. And before you shoot your mouth off about what it's really like on the border or the strip you might wanna read some accounts or PM me so I can put you in touch with some people who have actually been there, might actually open your eyes a bit.

Oh yeah, and please don't bring up close mindedness when you open a post like that eh?

[Burris]

I know 4 or 5 people who have "actually been" to Israel. Its funny how I'm immediately dismissed as uninformed simply because I have a different opinion from the entire forum.

[Ska Wars]

No, the quality of your posts dismisses you mate.

[ReutherMonkey]

This site forum is pretty surprisingly liberal.

Look, Israel's not going to give up an ounce of land until the arabs stop being fucking nuts over this shit. (I don't care what you say about "occupied lands" they had a chance to get a nation state and they turned it down because they thought they could annihilate the jews)

Perhaps a little more detailed study is in order.

Zionists (note: I differentiate here from "Jews") had been buying up land and lobbying the European powers for a Jewish homeland as early as 1897.

The Zionist movement found significant support in 1914, from the British government, in the form of military units made up primarily of Zionist volunteers wanting to fight the Ottoman Turks and advance the idea of a Jewish homeland. This same group was a significant part of the British military forces which conquered Palestine in the wake of the First World War. (Wiki: Jewish Legion, if you're curious)

Four years after the war ended, 1922, Great Britain was given the mandate over Palestine specifically for (and I quote): "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home".

Throughout the 1930s, the rise of Nazism meant the continued exodus of European Jews. By 1936, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 500 000 Jews had relocated to Palestine. Half a million people in under 40 years. Perhaps inevitably, the Palestinean Arabs revolted against Britain's rather open-door policy with regards to immigration into their country.

What followed was the White Paper, which at first glance appears to be rather racist in its declarations. But it seems, rather that it was a phased attempt to transfer immigration responsibility out of British hands and into that of the Arabs of Palestine.

Was this law followed? Of course not. With what was going on in Europe at the time, it shouldn't come as any shock that a movement started to encourage and operate illegal immigration. This happened in two phases. The first, illegal immigration in violation of the statute, roughly 1933-42. The second phase, accepting displaced European Jews. By the end of the war, the Jewish population in Palestine had skyrocketed to a full third of the population. Not bad for a mere 50 years of immigration.

Soon after the war, Britain withdrew from their Mandate and handed it over to the new United Nations. Who, of course, promptly drew up a map finally giving a state to the Zionists: Israel.


Perhaps it's time to halt for a minute, and point out a couple of common threads throughout this half-century history lesson. 1) Continuous Western intervention in a place where people were already living and who did not WANT foreign intervention. 2) Continuous Zionist intervention and meddling in a place where people were already living.


It really ought to come as no shock that the Arabs would be a little pissed by now. Enter the Arab-Israeli War. 700 000 Arabs are forced to flee Palestine in the conflict. And in the aftermath, this illegitimate, invader state is accepted into the United Nations and recognized by the Western powers as the legitimate authority in the region. Talk about getting kicked while you're down.

Less than 10 years later, Israel enters into a secret alliance with France and (wait for it) Great Britain, against their Arab neighbours in Egypt. In the ensuing conflict, Israel captures the Sinai and doesn't withdraw until promised shipping rights in the Red Sea and the Canal.

Ten years after that, Israel launches a pre-emptive war and seizes Gaza and the West Bank--territories populated by Palestinean Arabs--as military conquests, in direct contravention of post-WW2 worldwide agreements that military conquest of territory is an international crime.

And what did the UN and the West do to stop this rampaging child they'd created in someone else's yard? Right...absolutely nothing.

Add this 75 years of mistreatment, abuse, and neglect of the local population by both the West and the Zionist movement to the last 35 years of continued abuse by the "legitimate" authority in the country and you have some very pissed off people. You reap what you sow, and it should come as no shock or surprise to anyone that they're lobbing rockets at Israelis all the time.

It's an illegitimate state, founded on racist government and legitimized by colonialist military force and the tacit continued moral approval of those same original colonial powers. To say that Palestineans "had a chance to get a nation state and they turned it down" is the nothing but the height of cultural arrogance and smug superiority, with what appears to be a touch of ignorance thrown in, just for good measure.
you forgot the part about the British promising Palestine to the Arabs ~1916 in the McMahon-Hussein correspondences...

[Burris]

No, the quality of your posts dismisses you mate.

and a 15 paragraph diatribe about Israel being an illegal state is just ripe with quality, and asking someone which news channel they watch, as if that is a benchmark of intelligence in any sense.. Yeah that doesn't give any opinion either way.

On another note, has the PA shown a unilateral devotion to peace (I won't even mention Hamas as I know that answer), because it certainly seems to me they're towing two or three different lines, depending on who they talk to. And the Palestinian people have proven who they want.

To say Israel is an illegal state just because you have a differing opinion is silly. I'd even imagine some of you support Kosovo, which is very much a similar situation to that in Israel, but in vice versa. Look, I don't care enough about the issue to get too deeply involved, but I believe both states have the right to exist, but I don't think calling either state illegal is the right rhetoric to have. It's just provocative language and has no true legal bearing to it.

[Ska Wars]

and a 15 paragraph diatribe about Israel being an illegal state is just ripe with quality, and asking someone which news channel they watch, as if that is a benchmark of intelligence in any sense.. Yeah that doesn't give any opinion either way.

If you want me to take you seriously in the least bit, revise how you post in these threads.

You opened your post wrong and filled it with little more than sarcasm, and to be perfectly frank, a lack of knowledge of even basic history (e.g. "Give up land", slightly ironic?). I have no problem with someone having very different views to me, infact it's great sometimes, especially if they make a good point as it really allows you to revise the way you look at the world (A.J.P Taylor, God or Anti-Christ). But you really didn't show yourself in a good light mate.

I'm not trying to put you down, but if you really want to keep posting in this part of the forms and actually contribute to a good thread, please construct your point better and try not to resort to sarcasm as much as you appear to at the moment. If you're pro Israel, that's fine and by all means tell us so, but please, back it up with well written reasons and ideas. Resorting to the sort of 'name calling' and taunts you have done in places really isn't helping you. And yes, I realise other people do the same at times, but we're not children here, we shouldn't lower ourselves to it just 'because he did it'.

If you have any links about your friends you mentioned I'd be very interested to read so please throw them up or PM me if you'd prefer. I'll do the same if you'd like to speak to mine.

[ReutherMonkey]

On another note, has the PA shown a unilateral devotion to peace (I won't even mention Hamas as I know that answer), because it certainly seems to me they're towing two or three different lines, depending on who they talk to. And the Palestinian people have proven who they want.I haven't seen any reason to doubt the PA. They've tried working diplomatically. Hamas has really been the only barrier to peace and progress.


To say Israel is an illegal state just because you have a differing opinion is silly. I'd even imagine some of you support Kosovo, which is very much a similar situation to that in Israel, but in vice versa. Look, I don't care enough about the issue to get too deeply involved, but I believe both states have the right to exist, but I don't think calling either state illegal is the right rhetoric to have. It's just provocative language and has no true legal bearing to it.I would contend you're doing the same thing you're accusing Ska of. Frankly, there IS legal basis to say that Israel is an illegal country, based upon its history. I personally disagree with this view (Israel fought, and won the land twice - '48 and '67), but the debate over whether it's a legal state or not is what this is all about.

[Burris]

I'm not going to get personal friends involved in this. I don't even feel compelled to be involved in this. I have a lot of good friends at UofM that go to Israel in the summer. I've gotten into arguments with these people that Palestine does need a state, I'm by no means some crazy right wing loon, and to imply I am via some stupid Fox News proxy is ridiculous.

And there isn't an ounce of sarcasm in anything I have said.

Reuther, I appreciate the non slanted stance you have. I've seen speeches of PA members talking about wiping out Israel to supporters, and then going to Israel and talking to them. I also have issues that they seem to me to be a corrupt oligarchy hand picked by Arafat. Now, I understand the need to appease the population but I think it's not constructive to brainwash your population and then goto the people you're telling them to hate and trying to be friends with them.

[Rob]

And there isn't an ounce of sarcasm in anything I have said.


All hail the Palestinian "Freedom fighters"

I could post a thread about the "effects of terrorism" but that would just make me look like a close minded "republican" right? :rolleyes:


/still in a nitpicking mood ;)

[Ska Wars]

^ Cheers Rob. That's what I'm talking about Burris.


I would contend you're doing the same thing you're accusing Ska of.

Sorry guys, at which point did I say Israel was an illegal state? I just said there methods of carrying out this 'war' is at the moment.

[Burris]

The second part of that is not sarcasm in any sense.

Now provocative political cartoons too...

[jordan]

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3442/n536130107477992493rr8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Rob]

I don't think that accusation is toward you, it was toward me.

[jordan]

The second part of that is not sarcasm in any sense.

Now provocative political cartoons too...

I still don't understand what justifies Israel's existance.

[Burris]

And your political cartoon helps how?

No opinions will be swayed in this thread. I still find it very hard to believe if there was an effects of terrorism thread there'd be this kind of backlash towards the terrorists. In fact I can imagine they'd be humanised, and people would talk about how it's a last resort, as if that makes it right.

[jordan]

And your political cartoon helps how?

No opinions will be swayed in this thread. I still find it very hard to believe if there was an effects of terrorism thread there'd be this kind of backlash towards the terrorists. In fact I can imagine they'd be humanised, and people would talk about how it's a last resort, as if that makes it right.

When you bulldoze someone's house, kill the family members, shut off the power, and eliminate local infrastructure, I'm not the one suprised when someone picks up an AK from the market, puts on his turban, and turns to the only thing he has left; his religion.

When you treat people like animals, they will act like it.

[ReutherMonkey]

The second part of that is not sarcasm in any sense.

Now provocative political cartoons too...

I still don't understand what justifies Israel's existance.

When a people declare themselves a country, and then fight to show their autonomy and their borders in a war, that's usually called a justification. Otherwise, not a single nation on this planet would be "justified", and certainly not the United States.

[Burris]

When cease fires are declared in Gaza, Israel doesn't raid Gaza until they are hit by rockets, which hamas, IJ, and others fire knowing they breach the ceasefire. (and I'm sure in some aspects for the publicity, "look at israel invading us despite the cease fire!") I'm sure the Israeli's injured or killed by Qassam rockets would really appreciate the analogies to the rockets being fire crackers, and teenage boys messing around.

Now, if Mexico was throwing molotov cocktails across the border at our farmers, or was to fire a bunch of rockets at El Paso, we'd have to respond too. And historically we have.

Israel does not resort to the raids normally in West Bank, which doesn't really launch many rockets at them, much less daily as they do in Gaza. I'm sure if you were to show times where Palestinians had a level headed foreign policy, that the violence was dramatically less.

[Cheeto]

I find it amusing that behavior such as this was perfectly acceptable for most of history but now it's considered reprehensible.

I think Israel, regardless of whether it has a right to exist, does and will continue to exist. That's not going to change, get over it and learn to live with it. Palestine needs to exist as a state so they can feel better about themselves and take care of themselves. However a lot of the Arab states would hate to see that because then they lose their rallying cry against 'teh eeeeeeevil Jews!'

I think attacking with overwhelming force isn't necessarily bad, in fact it generally makes the best tactical/strategic sense. You fight a restrained war and you'll lose. Now there is a limit, obviously if you're dropping nukes on remote amazon villages because they hurled a spear at a passing naval ship that could be a little over blown, but in this case, an armed action requires measured armed response, Israel just tends to forget the 'measured' part.

I think the best result would be for Israel to strike a peace deal with the Palestinians, swallow their pride and self-interest and help build a Palestinian state that will be grateful for the help and grow close ties to Israel. It will stabilize the region and mute a lot of the vitriol people level at Israel. However in order for that, Israel will either have to flatten Gaza to wipe out Hamas (bad) or the Palestinians will have to root out Hamas themselves (good).

However I doubt any of this will change any time soon, if ever.

[jordan]

The second part of that is not sarcasm in any sense.

Now provocative political cartoons too...

I still don't understand what justifies Israel's existance.

When a people declare themselves a country, and then fight to show their autonomy and their borders in a war, that's usually called a justification. Otherwise, not a single nation on this planet would be "justified", and certainly not the United States.

Then what justification do they have for the obscene amount of aide they recieve yearly? They're not exactly a third world nation

[jordan]

Israel does not resort to the raids normally in West Bank, which doesn't really launch many rockets at them, much less daily as they do in Gaza. I'm sure if you were to show times where Palestinians had a level headed foreign policy, that the violence was dramatically less.

Such as before the 6 day war?

[Burris]

I still don't understand what justifies Israel's existance.

When a people declare themselves a country, and then fight to show their autonomy and their borders in a war, that's usually called a justification. Otherwise, not a single nation on this planet would be "justified", and certainly not the United States.[/quote]

Then what justification do they have for the obscene amount of aide they recieve yearly? They're not exactly a third world nation[/quote]

Have you looked at how many people want to destroy Israel in the area? The US sends a ton of aid to Egypt too.

Turkey and Egypt are the only friendly (Egypt being debatable) nations to Israel.

Also, I do agree it's in Israel's interest to help establish a Palestinian state, with East Jerusalem as its capital. (And believe me, this has gotten me in some arguments with my Jewish friends) However, I can understasnd that they don't want to negotiate with Hamas, as it would be counter productive to bolster a group that vows to destroy you.

[jordan]

Have you looked at how many people want to destroy Israel in the area? The US sends a ton of aid to Egypt too.

Turkey and Egypt are the only friendly (Egypt being debatable) nations to Israel.

Which is why I'm a broken record, we need to revise our foreign policy entirely. We should totally withdraw militarily, and quit trying to be buddy buddy by sending free aide to everyone, regardless if they're friends or enemies with one another. We're going into debt for it, I might add.

The arabs want Israel gone because it occupies and continues to encroach on muslim holy land.

[Burris]

It's Jewish holy land too, it's Christian holy land too. What's your point?

[ReutherMonkey]

When a people declare themselves a country, and then fight to show their autonomy and their borders in a war, that's usually called a justification. Otherwise, not a single nation on this planet would be "justified", and certainly not the United States.

Then what justification do they have for the obscene amount of aide they recieve yearly? They're not exactly a third world nation
Justification? None. US Reasoning is basically that our $3bil/yr is funding a stable, well run intelligence agency in a part of the world that we have very little influence in. Israel certainly doesn't need our $3bil and best planes though.

[ReutherMonkey]

Then what justification do they have for the obscene amount of aide they recieve yearly? They're not exactly a third world nation

Have you looked at how many people want to destroy Israel in the area? The US sends a ton of aid to Egypt too.

Turkey and Egypt are the only friendly (Egypt being debatable) nations to Israel.

Also, I do agree it's in Israel's interest to help establish a Palestinian state, with East Jerusalem as its capital. (And believe me, this has gotten me in some arguments with my Jewish friends) However, I can understasnd that they don't want to negotiate with Hamas, as it would be counter productive to bolster a group that vows to destroy you.
Frankly, it's not our job to "save" Israel. Hell, they went to war when the nation was days old in '48 and fought off every surrounding Arab country on its own. If they wanted to, they could easily take back the Sin'ai without a worry. They're more than capable without our constant assistance.

[Burris]

It's in our interest to maintain the status quo (Worst case) or a Palestinian state (Best case) there. A new middle eastern conflict would have very bad consequences on the US and the whole world.

[ReutherMonkey]

It's in our interest to maintain the status quo (Worst case) or a Palestinian state (Best case) there. A new middle eastern conflict would have very bad consequences on the US and the whole world.
You're making the mistake of assuming that without our aid, their defense network would falter. A quick look at Israel's page on the CIA worldfactbook would indicate otherwise.

[Burris]

No, it's not that. I know they would win, that's the problem. They have nuclear warheads. I just think it would be far more catastrophic than 48.

[ReutherMonkey]

The US has nukes, and based upon actions, I'd be more worried about the US using them than Israel. Israel hasn't shown any signs that they'd actually use them.

[Burris]

They would as a last resort, and that's what the US is probably worried about.

[jordan]

It's Jewish holy land too, it's Christian holy land too. What's your point?

Before 1948 there was Muslim majority occupying itself in a region that was... Muslim. Muslims regard their holy land to a higher degree than do Christians; they're willing to die for it.

My point is that Zionism is a dangerous apartheid nationalistic movement that expands its borders through constant bulldozing followed by settlement construction, and the rightful owners of that land are subject to having their homes searches, being strip searched, and being subject to curfew in their own territory.

edit= and to them having nukes probably eludes to the whole iranian controversy. Why would Israel need them if none of the neighbors did?

I wouldn't want my enemy to be armed if I had nothing to defend myself with, personally.

[Cheeto]

Nice job god. How to ensure never-ending conflict? Place a major holy site for 3 world religions in 1 convenient space!

[Burris]

It's Jewish holy land too, it's Christian holy land too. What's your point?

Before 1948 there was Muslim majority occupying itself in a region that was... Muslim. Muslims regard their holy land to a higher degree than do Christians; they're willing to die for it.

My point is that Zionism is a dangerous apartheid nationalistic movement that expands its borders through constant bulldozing followed by settlement construction, and the rightful owners of that land are subject to having their homes searches, being strip searched, and being subject to curfew in their own territory.

Why do you keep trolling along with this provocative unsubstantiated language?

[jordan]

It's Jewish holy land too, it's Christian holy land too. What's your point?

Before 1948 there was Muslim majority occupying itself in a region that was... Muslim. Muslims regard their holy land to a higher degree than do Christians; they're willing to die for it.

My point is that Zionism is a dangerous apartheid nationalistic movement that expands its borders through constant bulldozing followed by settlement construction, and the rightful owners of that land are subject to having their homes searches, being strip searched, and being subject to curfew in their own territory.

Why do you keep trolling along with this provocative unsubstantiated language?

If the Palestinians did this to Israel, Burris, would they be any different?

I fail to see how anything I said was unsubstantiated.

[Burris]

What do you mean by this? I see it was Israel responding to as you put it, teenage boys firing off toy rockets, no as Israel going on a killjoy like you're spouting off.

Do displaced Germans from Hungary or Romania or other places have a right to live on their homelands? I think so, you may not, it's not something that will change.

[ReutherMonkey]

It's Jewish holy land too, it's Christian holy land too. What's your point?

Before 1948 there was Muslim majority occupying itself in a region that was... Muslim. Muslims regard their holy land to a higher degree than do Christians; they're willing to die for it.

My point is that Zionism is a dangerous apartheid nationalistic movement that expands its borders through constant bulldozing followed by settlement construction, and the rightful owners of that land are subject to having their homes searches, being strip searched, and being subject to curfew in their own territory.
Before 1948, Jews actually already made a majority. From ~1920-1948, the population went from predominantly Arab Muslim to predominantly European Jewish, thanks to mass emigration from Europe. The land, at least in the formation of the state, was legally bought, and the rest was fought for in '48.



edit= and to them having nukes probably eludes to the whole iranian controversy. Why would Israel need them if none of the neighbors did?

I wouldn't want my enemy to be armed if I had nothing to defend myself with, personally.Israel got them because 1) they could easily do it with our support, so why not, and 2) they fear(ed) Iraq and Iran who they knew were pushing for and using chemical weapons. Nukes are Israel's deterrence.

[jordan]

What do you mean by this? I see it was Israel responding to as you put it, teenage boys firing off toy rockets, no as Israel going on a killjoy like you're spouting off.

Do displaced Germans from Hungary or Romania or other places have a right to live on their homelands? I think so, you may not, it's not something that will change.

Ok well I cited a source (which in turn cites its sources) on killjoy statistics but you already wrote that off because apparently killing children doesn't matter (from your own words)


Israel got them because 1) they could easily do it with our support, so why not, and 2) they fear(ed) Iraq and Iran who they knew were pushing for and using chemical weapons. Nukes are Israel's deterrence.

Chemical weapons for use inside their own internal affairs, yeah. They're nukes serve no purpose beyond deterring harsh language and rock throwing, and even then they suck at it.

lol WMDs

[Burris]

The rocks start getting thrown when Israel responds to rockets being fired from a force that vows their extinction, despite "ceasefires"

[ReutherMonkey]

Israel got them because 1) they could easily do it with our support, so why not, and 2) they fear(ed) Iraq and Iran who they knew were pushing for and using chemical weapons. Nukes are Israel's deterrence.

Chemical weapons for use inside their own internal affairs, yeah. They're nukes serve no purpose beyond deterring harsh language and rock throwing, and even then they suck at it.

lol WMDs
I contend that their nukes have done nothing to deter harsh language OR rock throwing! I've heard tales that it's impossible to build houses in Gaza because all of the stones and rocks have long since been thrown into Israel.

[jordan]

The rocks start getting thrown when Israel responds to rockets being fired from a force that vows their extinction, despite "ceasefires"

and a cluster bomb gets dropped in downtown Rafah or Gaza city as a totally appropriate retaliation

[jordan]

Israel got them because 1) they could easily do it with our support, so why not, and 2) they fear(ed) Iraq and Iran who they knew were pushing for and using chemical weapons. Nukes are Israel's deterrence.

Chemical weapons for use inside their own internal affairs, yeah. They're nukes serve no purpose beyond deterring harsh language and rock throwing, and even then they suck at it.

lol WMDs
I contend that their nukes have done nothing to deter harsh language OR rock throwing! I've heard tales that it's impossible to build houses in Gaza because all of the stones and rocks have long since been thrown into Israel.

and I hear its hard to even have a home in Gaza, what with these bulldozers and all

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WF5wWAsBQks

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WF5wWAsBQks

[Burris]

I love how you ignore the fact these refugee camps are safe havens for terrorists, who blend in with the population in order to get the maximum amount of casualties on their side.

Do you think it's unintentional and just Hamas being friendly they put high valued targets in with homes with large families? Could it be Hamas likes the publicity they get from all these deaths?

[Azevedo]

I think it is funny how everyone here 'feels bad' for Palestine because they now have to share their homes with Israel, nevermind the fact it was the Romans who kicked the Jews out and changed Israel to Syria-Palestina.

[Burris]

and I was thinking about the Israel being racist comment...

If Israel was racist, would they have used military resources to rescue Moroccan (Arab) jews? or Ethiopian jews?

[ReutherMonkey]

and I was thinking about the Israel being racist comment...

If Israel was racist, would they have used military resources to rescue Moroccan (Arab) jews? or Ethiopian jews?
depends on if you believe that "Jews" are a race, which many people seem to do.

[Burris]

Well I don't think you can necessarily debate that Ethiopians are part of the Jewish "race" (Which I don't buy, Jews are nationalities and religions, not both)

[jordan]

I love how you ignore the fact these refugee camps are safe havens for terrorists, who blend in with the population in order to get the maximum amount of casualties on their side.

Do you think it's unintentional and just Hamas being friendly they put high valued targets in with homes with large families? Could it be Hamas likes the publicity they get from all these deaths?

and the way Israel deals with peaceful protest through demolition, flashbangs, mace, clubs, and if that wasn't enough, shooting.

When you treat people like animals, they will become them and act on it.

[AFG]

Nice job god. How to ensure never-ending conflict? Place a major holy site for 3 world religions in 1 convenient space!

i lol'd

[ReutherMonkey]

I love how you ignore the fact these refugee camps are safe havens for terrorists, who blend in with the population in order to get the maximum amount of casualties on their side.

Do you think it's unintentional and just Hamas being friendly they put high valued targets in with homes with large families? Could it be Hamas likes the publicity they get from all these deaths?

and the way Israel deals with peaceful protest through demolition, flashbangs, mace, clubs, and if that wasn't enough, shooting.

When you treat people like animals, they will become them and act on it.
What I find sad about this is that everyone blames Israel for the plight of the Palestinians. What of the neighboring Arab MUSLIM countries who don't want Palestinians among them and don't accept them as refugees? It's easy to listen to the Arab countries who use Palestine as a rallying cry to keep the masses angry at Israel instead of at their own bad governments. What are living conditions of Palestinians who have tried going to Egypt or Saudi Arabia?

If Israel is so bad, why does Israel have more Palestinians in its territory (NOT including occupied Palestine) than Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon combined?

[Burris]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7267285.stm

Just toy rockets.

[jordan]

If Israel is so bad, why does Israel have more Palestinians in its territory (NOT including occupied Palestine) than Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon combined?

Israel has an ever expanding border with a lower birthrate than does its neighbors.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/11/124803.shtml

[jordan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7267285.stm

Just toy rockets.

Bias in the media


According to Israeli human rights groups and others who assiduously gather data on all children killed in the conflict, at least 82 Palestinian children were killed before any Israeli children were killed – and the largest single cause of these Palestinian children’s deaths was “gunfire to the head.” Yet, almost no one is aware of this, since Times coverage consistently omitted or minimized coverage of these Palestinian deaths.

http://www.counterpunch.org/weir04252005.html

[Burris]

Or maybe it's important news because everytime Palestine goes off and does this shit Israel is forced to respond? Your judgement is pretty damn clouded.

[ReutherMonkey]

If Israel is so bad, why does Israel have more Palestinians in its territory (NOT including occupied Palestine) than Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon combined?Israel has an ever expanding border with a lower birthrate than does its neighbors.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/11/124803.shtml
That doesn't even come close to answering my question. I already said that "not including occupied Palestine" Israel has more; and since 1967 at least, Israel's borders have only shrunk. Israel has not expelled all non-Jews from its country, and has more Palestinians than any other Middle-Eastern country save for Jordan.

[jordan]

Or maybe it's important news because everytime Palestine goes off and does this shit Israel is forced to respond? Your judgement is pretty damn clouded.

So Palestine is entirely to blame, nobody is innocent.



That doesn't even come close to answering my question. I already said that "not including occupied Palestine" Israel has more; and since 1967 at least, Israel's borders have only shrunk. Israel has not expelled all non-Jews from its country, and has more Palestinians than any other Middle-Eastern country save for Jordan.

Immigration and birthrates.

[ReutherMonkey]

That doesn't even come close to answering my question. I already said that "not including occupied Palestine" Israel has more; and since 1967 at least, Israel's borders have only shrunk. Israel has not expelled all non-Jews from its country, and has more Palestinians than any other Middle-Eastern country save for Jordan.

Immigration and birthrates.
You know that if you can't answer the question, you don't have to actually respond to the post. Your response doesn't answer why, if Israel is so evil, they allow so many Arab Muslims to live there. If they were so malicious, there would be no Muslims in that country. Period.

[Burris]

Forget it, I brought it up earlier and got no response, I don't expect to.

[Burris]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7267285.stm

Just toy rockets.

Bias in the media


According to Israeli human rights groups and others who assiduously gather data on all children killed in the conflict, at least 82 Palestinian children were killed before any Israeli children were killed – and the largest single cause of these Palestinian children’s deaths was “gunfire to the head.” Yet, almost no one is aware of this, since Times coverage consistently omitted or minimized coverage of these Palestinian deaths.

http://www.counterpunch.org/weir04252005.html

Anyone with any source or scholarly debate experience will tell you that you don't cite bias sources who cite bias sources to make a point.

[Burris]

Further proof of Zionist racism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majalli_Wahabi

[Rob]

and since 1967 at least, Israel's borders have only shrunk.

Except when things like this happen?


Israel approves settlement growth

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has approved a plan to build up to 750 new homes in a Jewish settlement in the West Bank.
The project was first signed off in 1999, but stopped two years later after Palestinian labourers refused to go on.

Israel's housing minister said the construction at Givat Zeev would address "the demographic needs of Jerusalem".

But the decision provoked an angry reaction from Palestinian leaders.

For the Palestinians there are few issues as contentious as the building of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, says the BBC's Crispin Thorold in Jerusalem.

Under the terms of the peace process settlement expansion is supposed to be frozen.

Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the latest decision raised doubts about Israel's commitment to peace talks.

"It seems to me the Israelis are determined to put a stick in the wheel of negotiations," he said.

"It will undermine the US effort to revive the negotiations."

Mr Olmert's spokesman, Mark Regev said it was not a new decision.

"This decision predates this government," he said.

"We have approved it. It is consistent with our policy of building within the large settlement blocs, which will remain in Israel in any final-status agreement," he added.

Israel Radio said the decision to restart the development was pushed by the ultra-Orthodox Shas party, which had threatened to quit the government coalition unless the construction was approved.

The decision comes three days after a Palestinian gunman opened fire in the library of a Jewish seminary in Jerusalem, killing eight young people.

The college was closely linked to the settler movement.

Linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7286264.stm)

[Burris]

750 homes? What about the thousands and thousands of illegal Palestinian homes that are havens for terrorists? That's pretty bad too.

[Rob]

"Illegal Palestinean homes"? Do you mean the ones in areas that the Israeli gov't has rezoned to be their property? Or the ones built by locals so they have a place to live, without permission of the crappy government they have because it's too busy dealing with Israel?

[Penguin]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/651/imabastardxy8.jpg

[Rob]

Point, set, match. Penguin wins the thread with epic irony.

[Burris]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/651/imabastardxy8.jpg

Not really. I just feel they have had ample opportunity to break the status quo by electing leaders open to the idea of the recognition of Israel, and they consistently elect Hamas and the PA, both are corrupt. If the people don't want to make their own choices I and no other country should have to make their decisions at the behest of Israel.

[Rob]

"Democracy is great, but only if you pick the leadership I like"

[Burris]

It's not about whether or not I like it, and I didn't infer that.

[HS the Whap]

I don't care about either. Fuck them both. Anyone that honestly believes they have a deity on their side needs a swift visit from a tactical nuke.

[Bismarck]

<snippy pic>

Fuck you, apathetic Ben Franklin!

[jow]

I don't care about either. Fuck them both. Anyone that honestly believes they have a deity on their side needs a swift visit from a tactical nuke.

so.. much.. irony...

[2ltben]

http://www.amazon.com/Strangers-House-C ... 541&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Strangers-House-Coming-Occupied-Palestine/dp/0142002933/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206940541&sr=1-1)

I suggest that to everyone who wants a refreshing anti-fundamentalist Palestinian perspective, written by one of the most prominent Palestinian lawyers involved in the peace process.

[HS the Whap]

I don't care about either. Fuck them both. Anyone that honestly believes they have a deity on their side needs a swift visit from a tactical nuke.

so.. much.. irony...

Why? Because God is on the Red Sox side?!

GOOD DAY.

[Azevedo]

[quote="HS The Whap":3scwp4zq]I don't care about either. Fuck them both. Anyone that honestly believes they have a deity on their side needs a swift visit from a tactical nuke.

so.. much.. irony...

Why? Because God is on the Red Sox side?!

GOOD DAY.[/quote:3scwp4zq]

FUCK THE RED SOX. GO BENGALS.