18th June 2008 - The Day Democracy Died In Sweden

[Zyn]

I am ashamed to live in this fucked up country: http://www.thelocal.se/12534/20080618/

Since the non-socialist party Moderaterna came to power, this place has gone down the shitter. Rich people richer, poor people poorer, rip away benefits for people who are unemployed, "if you have no job, you should not get any money anyway" which has turned Sweden into a welfare society. Higher taxes for people with little money, lower taxes for rich people, and the promised removal of the real estate tax never happened, it got raised instead.

And now came this surveillance law which was originally started by Thomas Bodström, in the Socialist Democrats party, who lost power almost 2 years ago. And yesterday the voting was held about this law, and the majority voted for it. Right in that moment, the rage of millions was heard throughout Sweden, and it became apparent that the government doesn't give a shit about its people. How can a law, that is a major threat to the personal integrity, possibly make politicians think it's a good idea? Oh yeah, they used the magic keyword: TERRORISM! Fuck yes! Woooh! Foreign threats! Yehaw!

"1984" just got real...

[MeleeMe?]

Welcome to America. Enjoy your stay.

[Koobazaur]

fuckeduppery

do you think they're watching us now :ninja:

[Maxey]

Lol, are you guys trying to compete with Portugal?

[Azevedo]

"if you have no job, you should not get any money anyway" which has turned Sweden into a welfare society.

Does not follow.

[Burris]

Welfare society seems to me to be a pretty bad thing. When your government has to look after people who sometimes simply don't want to work, it's a major burden on economic progress...

[Cheeto]

Welfare society seems to me to be a pretty bad thing. When your government has to look after people who sometimes simply don't want to work, it's a major burden on economic progress...
The trick is: How does a bureaucracy determine the difference between someone lazy, someone handicapped, and someone just having bad luck?

[Penguin]

A lot of people would say to remove "bad luck" from the equation.

[Latzen]

Okay.

3% Income tax on 950,000 per annum = 28,500

11% Income tax on 40,000 per annum = 4,400

"The Rich Pay Less Tax!!!!"

Fuck off. Some tax DODGERS actually pay a smaller dollar figure, which is illegal. But most wealthy people shell out a higher fraction of the total.

Most of the arguments that the rich should pay higher percentages arise from envy.

That's the US. Maybe Sweden's different (and the numbers used here are totally pulled out of my ass).

You're just hearing it here because I've run into a large number of asshats lately that advocate taking 30 and 40% of people's wealth. I can understand being pissed that you're only making 20k, but why does that seem to translate into this attitude that people aren't entitled to the money they make if they make > XXX,XXX?

Whatever. I'm really fucking tired.

[Stephenson]

I thought democracy died in Sweden when the M/S Estonia cover up happened.

[Cheeto]

Okay.

3% Income tax on 950,000 per annum = 28,500

11% Income tax on 40,000 per annum = 4,400

"The Rich Pay Less Tax!!!!"

Fuck off. Some tax DODGERS actually pay a smaller dollar figure, which is illegal. But most wealthy people shell out a higher fraction of the total.

Most of the arguments that the rich should pay higher percentages arise from envy.

That's the US. Maybe Sweden's different (and the numbers used here are totally pulled out of my ass).

You're just hearing it here because I've run into a large number of asshats lately that advocate taking 30 and 40% of people's wealth. I can understand being pissed that you're only making 20k, but why does that seem to translate into this attitude that people aren't entitled to the money they make if they make > XXX,XXX?

Whatever. I'm really fucking tired.
I would say the problem isn't that I'm envious someone is making more money, I'm envious they're paying less percentage of their income than I am. In your own example you show that someone who makes close to a million a year pays 3% whereas the person making a moderate salary is paying a tenth of their salary. How is that fair at all? Taking 30% of a person who makes a milllion a year is too much. It discourages you from becoming wealthy. But how is making someone who has much less margin for survival paying MORE than a person who has more than enough fair? Reverse those numbers and we'll talk.

Personally, though, I'd rather see corporations pay more of the national income tax than the private citizens.

[Burris]

*sigh* IF you look at economic theory they tax the rich less so they invest more.

Income tax for the rich here is around 50%, but since many of them invest, they pay far less in taxes because of this.

[Cheeto]

*sigh* IF you look at economic theory they tax the rich less so they invest more.

Income tax for the rich here is around 50%, but since many of them invest, they pay far less in taxes because of this.
That's nice. Because it sure as hell doesn't match up to numbers that were found after a big sniff at the investing houses here in Dallas.

[Shade-of-Grey]

I am ashamed to live in this fucked up country: http://www.thelocal.se/12534/20080618/

Since the non-socialist party Moderaterna came to power, this place has gone down the shitter. Rich people richer, poor people poorer, rip away benefits for people who are unemployed, "if you have no job, you should not get any money anyway" which has turned Sweden into a welfare society. Higher taxes for people with little money, lower taxes for rich people, and the promised removal of the real estate tax never happened, it got raised instead.

And now came this surveillance law which was originally started by Thomas Bodström, in the Socialist Democrats party, who lost power almost 2 years ago. And yesterday the voting was held about this law, and the majority voted for it. Right in that moment, the rage of millions was heard throughout Sweden, and it became apparent that the government doesn't give a shit about its people. How can a law, that is a major threat to the personal integrity, possibly make politicians think it's a good idea? Oh yeah, they used the magic keyword: TERRORISM! Fuck yes! Woooh! Foreign threats! Yehaw!

"1984" just got real...
that is indeed fucked up.

does it require any sort of court order? if not, was it possible to tap peoples phone and email with a court order before?

iirc the PATRIOT ACT (its named the Patriot act....how could it be un-American?) has the same sort of provision in it...for warrentless tapping of international communications-- which I think is pretty rediculous since there has always been a legal way of getting the same surveillance in classified courts (proponents say that they change cell phones, etc too quickly to make court orders effective...but i've also heard that they are pretty quick about granting said warrants)

[SwedeIndeed]

The rich has never payed high taxes in Sweden, even when the oh-so-glorified socialist party held government (which it has for the last 1 billion years - and now they blame everything bad in this country on our new government which hasn't even ruled for two). If the rich would pay the taxes that the rest of us pay, Kamprad (IKEA), Wallenbergs (Investor), Ericsson, and all major swedish companies and their founders would be based in Switzerland by now. It's just not in the nation's interest to have it that way, cynical or not. The Rausings (inventor of the Tetra-Pak and multi-zillionaires) already moved to Britain to avoid an eventual inhertatnce tax that was well over 120% (which is now abolished, thanks to the new bad conservative government).

Generally in Sweden it has always been like this:

Poor people don't pay taxes - they do not earn enough and instead gets support via the welfare system
The middle class pays a lot of taxes - and I mean a lot. Here we got your average Joe, we pay less taxes than with our old government, but it still hurts in your wallet.
The rich doesn't pay taxes - it is perfectly ok to plan your economy according to the laws of the country your in, thus these people manage to declare an income of 0 each year, and the government lets them get away with it (as explained above) since they are so few and thus there is more to loose than to gain.

One of our former ministers of finance, Gunnar Sträng (socialist) made a famous quote when he was caught planning to avoid taxes (which caused a major public outcry as he was the one instituting [is that even a word?] them): "Swedish tax laws also applies to the swedish minister of finance". I think that sums it up pretty well.


About the so called "eaves-dropping laws". IMO I don't see why people are so friggin' upset. FRA has been listening to swedish radio communication for years (yes folks, that includes all internet and mail traffic that goes via radio or satellite! uhu, it's true!). In my experience, people protesting against this are either a)ignorant and haven't even bothered to research the facts, b) journalists who can smell a lot of sold copies if they jump on the bandwagon and c) the same people who doesn't want CCTV in stores, on major public streets and in garages since someone might actually see them on screen walking there the one day they do not shoplift and God! What a horrible intrusion of the private integrity that would be!

And then there is Google, who now feels obliged to move all it's servers from Sweden since "they cannot guarantee the privacy of their customers"... I didn't see them moving all their US servers to Canada while NSA was running their show on your side of the pond.


The big problem with passing such a law though, is the day when different authorities and companies are going to want their share of the information. I do not want MPAA knocking on my door because of what the Swedish Military Intelligence found out. If that happens I'm going to emigrate, but until then I'm fine.

[Beer|\/|onger]

It's the shit I talk about and flame wars ensue. Every source I use may not be 100% reliable, but hell if you want to talk conspiracy, this is it. I'm not going to argue political issues but a countries people need to have a say in what goes on in their government, and every policy the government changes or alters need to be publicized.

Terrorism is an excellent magic word. The real terrorists of America are sitting in the white house interpreting the constitution however they feel, having meetings and changing policies we know nothing about, and our congress seems about as powerful as a guinea pig at a snake blood orgy. The word Terrorism is used to justify things like the patriot act, this war, and dictatorial powers.

You want to know the way to end Terrorism? Stop allowing the huge corporations control huge amounts of the worlds wealth, and allow everyone around the world to live healthy, dignified lives.

Flame me all you want, but the general population is weak and simple minded, and will bow down...

[Burris]

God if you never posted again the world would be wonderful.

[Beer|\/|onger]

You make the most ignorant posts I have ever been unfortunate enough to read. You couldn't debate yourself out of a paper bag to save your life. Your response to intellectual political thought and debate is "OMG UR A RETARD!"

[Burris]

You don't debate, you post wikipedia, sometimes a legit source (Geocities) links and say "The truth is out there, open your minds, I might be wrong but I know I'm right!" Nothing you have said is remotely intellectual. Considering no real intellectuals (Read: not the nutjobs that conspiracy theory fans worship) from any country would ever take anything you say seriously.

[Koobazaur]

The sad thing is, Swordfish actually makes reasonable arguments but presents them in the silliest manner ever with a complete lack of backing up :/

[Beer|\/|onger]

Do you have anything new to say, or just the same old "WTF YOUR SOURCES SUCK OMG!"

1. How about your opinions on how Americas current administration has thrown the constitution in a urinal and pissed on it. I can pull up thousands of valid sources on that one. Cruel and unusual punishment, dictatorial powers destroying the checks and balance systems, a war that the majority of America does not want to continue.

2. Whats your opinion on Skull and Bones, the society that Bush and Kerry were in?

3. What does George Bush's new world order speech mean to you? is it fake?

4. Is the JFK speech faked, or taken out of context?

Stop talking if you have nothing to bring to the table. Quit being a fat zit faced preteen idiot

[Burris]

1) If Bush has "pissed" on the constitution as you put it, he should be able to stop the election and keep himself in power. How has he destroyed checks and balances? There's plenty of things that many presidents get and don't get. He's not excluded from this. FDR tried court packing, was he in the league with the lizard men too?

2) Who cares? There were a few presidents that belonged to the same fraternities, are they planning world domination via beerpong?

3) I don't care, the world is too divided for the Lizard People

4) It doesn't matter, JFK wasn't a good president anyway.

You aren't bringing anything to the table, just because you found some obscure plan on the internet and decided to try to troll everyone doesn't make you a researcher of any sort. For the record I still don't buy your bullshit schtick, I just want you to shut up about your silly little conspiracy theory troll-a-thon.

I think Swordfish is a viral marketing bot for the new X-Files movie.

[Cheeto]

Do you have anything new to say, or just the same old "WTF YOUR SOURCES SUCK OMG!"

1. How about your opinions on how Americas current administration has thrown the constitution in a urinal and pissed on it. I can pull up thousands of valid sources on that one. Cruel and unusual punishment, dictatorial powers destroying the checks and balance systems, a war that the majority of America does not want to continue. The government is a body of people, people are fallible and stupid. I agree with you that the mass majority of the public is too lazy and apathetic to do what they need to do (that is...to VOTE and PROTEST), and that the government and corporations do take advantage of that, but they're not evil. You make it sound as if this is the first administration to do unpopular things and be reviled for it.


2. Whats your opinion on Skull and Bones, the society that Bush and Kerry were in? About as conspiratorial as a frat house. In fact, that's basically what it is. A frat house for bored rich kids.


3. What does George Bush's new world order speech mean to you? is it fake? New world order? Okay, we are IN the new world order. We've gone through about a hundred different new world orders. From Rome being king to it collapsing was a new order of the world. The world is always changing, that's an obvious and blatant fact. It will continue to change. Some day the US will not be the dominant power as it is (already approaching that). Some day the US will cease to exist and there'll be something else. That's the way of things. Bush just has a notoriously bad choice of words (another obvious and blatant fact).


4. Is the JFK speech faked, or taken out of context? You really think if there'd been some conspiracy Kennedy wouldn't have known all about it before he got into office? Hell he would have grown up around it. I can think of a hundred reasons for him to have been assasinated that have nothing to do with the speech. Sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence.


Stop talking if you have nothing to bring to the table. Quit being a fat zit faced preteen idiot
Funny, I was gonna say the same thing to you.