War in Eastern Europe

[Rob]

Russian forces battle Georgians

Russian forces are locked in fierce clashes with Georgia inside its breakaway South Ossetia region, reports say, amid fears of all-out war.

Moscow sent armoured units across the border after Georgia moved against Russian-backed separatists.

Russia says 12 of its soldiers are dead, and separatists estimate that 1,400 civilians have died.

Georgia accuses Russia of waging war, and says it has suffered heavy losses in bombing raids which Russia denies.

Russian tanks have reportedly reached the northern suburbs of the regional capital, Tskhinvali, and there were conflicting claims about who was in control of the city.

"Now our peacekeepers are waging a fierce battle with regular forces from the Georgian army in the southern region of Tskhinvali," a military official was quoted as saying by the Russian news agency, Interfax.

After days of exchanging heavy fire with the separatists, Georgian forces moved on Thursday night to regain control of the region, which has had de facto independence since a war against Georgia that ended in 1992.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said Russia was making war on his country.

He told the BBC: "Our troops are attacked by thousands of troops coming in from Russia."

He said Georgia had shot down several Russian planes and accused Moscow of bombing Georgian air bases and towns, resulting in the death of 30 military personnel and civilians.

Despite denials from Moscow, the Russian air force has been carrying out air raids in South Ossetia and Georgia itself, says the BBC's Richard Galpin, in Gori, eastern Georgia.

'Ethnic cleansing'

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said he had to act to defend South Ossetia's civilians, most of whom have been given Russian citizenship.

He also voiced anger over the reported fatalities of Russian servicemen in the breakaway province.

"We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished," he said. "Those responsible will receive a deserved punishment."

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received reports that villages in South Ossetia were being ethnically cleansed.

The BBC's Matthew Collin in Tbilisi says battles continue around Tskhinvali with the sound of explosions, rocket fire and military planes flying overhead.

Witnesses said the regional capital was devastated.

Fleeing resident Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, told AP news agency: "I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars. It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were having trouble coping with the influx of casualties and ambulances were having trouble reaching the injured.

In other developments:
- US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called on Russia to pull its troops out of Georgia and respect its territorial integrity
- Georgia's president said his country was calling home 1,000 troops from Iraq to help deal with the crisis
- Russia said it would cut all air links with Georgia from midnight on Friday
- The European security organisation, the OSCE, warned that the fighting in South Ossetia could escalate into a full-scale war
- The US and the EU were reported to be sending a joint delegation to the region to seek a ceasefire and Nato said it was seriously concerned

Source, with embedded video of Russian tanks rolling into Georgian territory (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550354.stm). Holy shit Russia, wtf!

[Burris]

Dimitri Medvedyev is trying to flex muscles that he doesn't have, because Putin controls him. Russia is a horrible country, they consider all Russians in all territory their citizens. They are picking on Georgia because it's not under NATO's wing.

[Puddle]

Ya russia seems to love to step on territories.

[President Shrub]

Fuck them up, Georgia!

[Burris]

You shouldn't be saying that. Russia won't stop until they're wiped out if there isn't a ceasefire, plus the looming threat of nuclear war would also be in play.

[President Shrub]

I wouldn't be surprised if they started trying to annex ossetia, then georgia, then romania, ukraine, etc. over the course of the next 100 yrs

but that's just my fearmongering rabble, times have changed and things like that won't happen as easily as they did in the 20th century

[Burris]

The problem with the idiots in the Russian government is they think they still have a sphere of influence despite only Belarus liking them. Yet they still act like they have sway with places like Ukraine and the Baltics.

[Shade-of-Grey]

putin be crazy.

the video of the tanks rolling into georgia on the BBC is reassuring though...since it would appear that they are using hardware from 1970 still.

also this: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 149AA3VGTk (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080808091149AA3VGTk)

[Faceman]

U.S.S.R. is making a comeback...but why? How does this benefit Russia? They don't seem to possess resources worthwhile going to war for. Maybe for the ports? Something doesn't seem right here. Maybe they're worried about the US' missile shield getting placed there and the country joining NATO?

[Ska Wars]

Gotta admit though, Georgia really isn't handling this well. Mass missile strikes on civilian targets isn't going to help them debunk Russia's claims of being 'peace keepers'.

[Burris]

The Russian Federation is a greater risk to world stability than the USSR ever was. USSR was by at least half the world's account on equal footing with the USA, so they could level themselves. Russian Federation and Vladimir Ego and his little Lapdog think they have something to prove to the world about Russia's mighty influence on the world, and wish to extend their control over any country that has Russian citizens on it's borders.

GUESS WHAT RUSSIA: YOU PUT THEM THERE TO TRY TO GET RID OF LOCALS.

[Faceman]

Isn't the area that has Russian civilians very minor compared the rest of the country?

[Burris]

South Ossetians are not Russians. Historically they have aligned themselves with Russia, but they are certainly not Russians. Theres Georgians there as well too.

Russia gave them citizenship under the pretense "Well, we control NORTH Ossetia, so they're our citizens"

I wish the Russian people would do something about their government. I can understand why they're so jaded though.. I don't blame them.

[Ska Wars]

Isn't the area that has Russian civilians very minor compared the rest of the country?

Think it's around 40k with Russian passports (so technically duel citizenship). Makes a large amount of Ossetia but not so much the rest of the country. South Ossetia is a pretty big region though so not one Georgia is just gonna walk away from.

Seems Georgia has stopped it's attacks on civilian targets, but Russia has started so can't see this being a quick offensive. Atleast they've agreed to let the Red Cross in though, so the civilians already hurt will have a better chance.

[Cheeto]

Where's Tom Clancy and Jack Ryan when you need them?

Seriously, I doubt that the West will get too involved with this unless Georgia flat out asks for military assistance. Even then I doubt Russia will be willing to start World War 3 over a few villages in Georgia.

[Burris]

I don't know about that Cheeto. I dont' think the Putin administration has proven itself to be a too rational bunch of people.

Remember Germany was willing to start WWII over the Danzig corridor, and they did.

[Cheeto]

I don't know about that Cheeto. I dont' think the Putin administration has proven itself to be a too rational bunch of people.

Remember Germany was willing to start WWII over the Danzig corridor, and they did.
Yeah but the stakes are higher now. Germany and Britain didn't have the ability to extinguish all life on Earth in a matter of minutes, the US and Russia definitely do. It would take an extra special level of crazy to be willing to wipe out your entire species in a failed bluff. Short of ShellShock, I don't think anyone is quite that crazy.

[Faceman]

I highly doubt we'll get involved...directly. Even indirectly is a chance.

And here is the area in question:

http://www.picamatic.com/show/2008/08/09/09/784266_800x663.gif

It is larger than I thought it was. Also nice timing on Russia's part. Attack when the Olympics start, perfect diversion and less press coverage.

[Burris]

The Abkhazians tried to attack Georgian forces but were repelled.

[Fenris Wolf]

Where's Tom Clancy and Jack Ryan when you need them?


Fuck those guys, someone needs to call the KILDAR!

[Zirconium Blade]

This is pretty fucking big.

Bit more on this here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7550965.stm

[Dr. Crawford]

and pretty dumb. Do the Russian people even care? Why do they let this continue?

either way, i still think russians make the best bad guys in movies/games. James Bond isn't the same without them.

[Burris]

No the don't, because Putin replaces economic and social progress with sabre rattling and land grabbing.

[President Shrub]

Extending the war past S. Ossetia's borders = all out war

if Georgia falls to Russia, it will most likely be declared a "protectorate" by its occupiers
thus, easy land/influence grab for Russia in the future..

i am worried

[Koobazaur]

Wait, I am confused. TMH explain.

The way I understand it is, Ossetia detaches from Georgie, decides to become independent and Russia helps them with that by enforcing a truce between Ossetia and Georgie. Now, Georgie decides to retake Ossetia, attacks it and Russia, being an ally of Ossetia, steps in to defend it.

Unless I am missing something here, I don't see the reason for all the Russia-hate. If anything, they're doing what allies should be doing. Unless you are all saying Russia's just doing it to obtain Ossetiathemselves rather than protect a smaller country...

[Faceman]

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9246/bakuceyanqm1.jpg

Russia blew this the fuck up too.



Russian jets targeted major oil pipeline-Georgia
09 Aug 2008 14:07:00 GMT
Source: Reuters
TBILISI, Aug 9 (Reuters) - Russian fighter jets targeted the the major Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline which carries oil to the West from Asia but missed, Georgia's Economic Development Minister Ekaterina Sharashidze said on Saturday.

"This clearly shows that Russia has not just targeted Georgian economic outlets but international economic outlets in Georgia," she said at a news briefing.

There have been no independent verifications of Russian jets targeting the BTC pipeline. (Reporting by Margarita Antidze, writing by James Kilner, editing by Jon Boyle)

[President Shrub]

Wait, I am confused. TMH explain.

S. Ossetia is territory that has been part of Georgia throughout history. It neighbours N. Ossetia, which is part of Russia. The ethnic majority (90%) in S. Ossetia identifies themselves as Russian and a few non-national groups, oh and kazakhstan, even though they are in internationally recognized Georgian territory. As a result of Glasnost and the fall of the USSR, S. Ossetia seizes the chance to become independent from Georgia, sparking a war of independence in the early 90's, and continuing as a low-level conflict to this day.

During this time period, Russia itself seizes the chance to hand out Russian passports to S. Ossetians, encouraging them to self-identify themselves as Russian. S. Ossetia claims independence, including having held a self-contained referendum (of course it's going to be 99% pro independence, considering the demographics). South Ossetian independence is only recognized by Russia, and goes largely unnoticed/unrecognized by the rest of the world.

In late July/early August, Georgia launches offensive into S. Ossetia to combat separatists, who are on verge of collapsing in some key S. Ossetian cities. Citing "civilian Russian casualties" , ie the S. Ossetians they handed passports to, the Russians enter S. Ossetia as "peacekeepers" (as in the column of tanks you see on BBC) to protect Russian civilians. Backing the separatists, Russia engages in undeclared war against Georgian aggression, and have recently extended the conflict to target Georgian military assets (but have also hit civilians) outside of S. Ossetia to protect their Russian bretheren in S. Ossetia.

Georgia is a pro-US nation in the former iron curtain, and Putin has stated that this is one of the reasons for invasion (can be sourced, too lazy). If S. Ossetia gains true independence, it will undoubtly increase Russian sphere of influence and possibly allow for annexation/land grab in future. Georgia's only allies are EU and NATO rhetoric against a Russian military force that is approx. 5 times the size of it's regular forces (23,000 vs. 100,000). However, former SSR's such as Ukraine, Poland, and Azerbaijan recognize Georgia's territorial sovereignty to include S. Ossetia.

Pro-separatists have cited the recent Kosovo independence as justification for their own independence (ie, independence for ethnic minorities in territories where they are the majority). Anti-separatists say that Chechnya couldn't have independence, why should the S. Ossetians?

holy crap Ghost Recon 1 was right..

[Ska Wars]

Best read up on it all Koobazaur, looks like it's your country that's gonna be sent there first.

Seems Georgia has pulled it's troops back, look like it's Russia's move now.

[Zirconium Blade]

Apparently they've started peace negotations.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... %2BOssetia (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Georgia-Fighting-Ceasefire-Ordered-Following-Conflict-In-South-Ossetia/Article/200808215074624?lpos=World%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15074624_Georgia%2BFighting%253A%2BCea sefire%2BOrdered%2BFollowing%2BConflict%2BIn%2BSou th%2BOssetia)

[Faceman]

Her dress reminded me of Snow White.

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/1449/15074771pd7.jpg

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6652/snowwhitepiesmallwt4.jpg

[Dr. Crawford]

i saw that picture earlier and thought the same thing

[Cheeto]

and pretty dumb. Do the Russian people even care? Why do they let this continue?

No the don't, because Putin replaces economic and social progress with sabre rattling and land grabbing.
Wow this all sounds familiar...

:-D

[Burris]

and pretty dumb. Do the Russian people even care? Why do they let this continue?

No the don't, because Putin replaces economic and social progress with sabre rattling and land grabbing.
Wow this all sounds familiar...

:-D

Yeah because the social and economic situations in Russia and the US are SO similar.

[Ska Wars]

Why do they let this continue?

Don't think they really have a say mate. Russia's supression of anyone who writes out of line is pretty well documented, but even if they could protest what difference would it make?

Look at countries like the US and Britain. We regard ourselves as freer than others but what happened with the Iraq war? Huge mass protests against the war which didn't stop it happening. Aside from getting to tick a box every half a decade to 'decide' which government is in power the average citizen has little say in their countries running.

[Koobazaur]

So I've been reading a bit more about it. Seems like Georgia is a bunch of angry twats that gave Russia a good excuse to attack. La-de-frikkin da....

[Cheeto]

and pretty dumb. Do the Russian people even care? Why do they let this continue?

No the don't, because Putin replaces economic and social progress with sabre rattling and land grabbing.
Wow this all sounds familiar...

:-D

Yeah because the social and economic situations in Russia and the US are SO similar.
Your humor detector sucks ass.

[Faceman]

So I've been reading a bit more about it. Seems like Georgia is a bunch of angry twats that gave Russia a good excuse to attack. La-de-frikkin da....

Why? Because they tried to stop an uprising in an area of their country that Russia supports? I can see forces brought in to stop it but what Russia is doing now I would call excessive. Now they're just looking to pound them into submission.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/ ... 021212.php (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/08/021212.php)

I don't know how true it is, but apparently they didn't blow the pipeline up but tried.


Deep craters pockmark the landscape south of the Georgian capital Tblisi in a Y-shaped pattern straddling the British-operated pipeline. The attack left two deep holes less than 100 yards either side of a pressure vent on the pipeline. Shrapnel of highly engineered munitions litters the area.

There was no visible damage to the pipeline. ...

Local police recorded 51 strikes. "I have no doubt they wanted to target the pipeline, there is nothing else here," said Giorgi Abrahamisvili, a policeman who witnessed the attack.

Supposedly an America was taken hostage too. Russia reported him as a mercenary. He might be one of the advisers or maybe even someone related to NATO or pure Russia propaganda.

[Burris]

I read on BBC that the Russians were saying Georgia's president "Must go"

oh.. shit.

[Zirconium Blade]

both sides have launched new attacks and blamed each other for starting them first.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7553144.stm

Oh dear this could get pretty rough very fast.

[SimonS]

but sir...you say the enemy force is unknown...hasn't anyone like...spoken to them?

[Oli]

The Georgian president just signed a one-sided no firing treaty that Moscow demanded, I'm curious to see what happens next.

[Cheeto]

The fact Russia attempted to blow up an oil pipeline that helps fuel the West speaks volumes.

[TylerDurden]

im sorry for not reading anything in this thread, but i can't help but wonder what the hell russia is thinking. wont America work against the russians like in the 80's? wont they ?

if that one medical ship in san diego that never leaves, actually leaves, then its safe to say all hell is breaking loose.

[Burris]

The prospects for a negotiated ceasefire were dealt a blow when Russia's ambassador to Nato declared that Mr Saakashvili "is no longer a man that we can deal with". Dmitri Rogozin said: "He must be punished for breaching international law. He is responsible for many war crimes."

Fucking great. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 507980.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4507980.ece)

[Cheeto]

The prospects for a negotiated ceasefire were dealt a blow when Russia's ambassador to Nato declared that Mr Saakashvili "is no longer a man that we can deal with". Dmitri Rogozin said: "He must be punished for breaching international law. He is responsible for many war crimes."

Fucking great. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 507980.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4507980.ece)
I hate Russia sometimes...

[Burris]

Where is the hippy outrage over this? Is it not trendy, as it's Russia and not the US? This really pisses me off. Where are the masses of peace loving protestors? Why is it when a tiny democracy is invaded the world is silent?

This is outrageous. I hate Russia. I wish I could help the Georgian people.

My friend is friends with people who live in Georgia (He was there in the summer) and he said every Georgian has a gun in their home and apparently the Russians are moving on Tblisi.

[Rob]

Where is the hippy outrage over this? Is it not trendy, as it's Russia and not the US? This really pisses me off. Where are the masses of peace loving protestors? Why is it when a tiny democracy is invaded the world is silent?
Right here, I'm pretty appalled about it. Especially this:


Russian troops in Georgia advance

Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, as the conflict between the two neighbours appears to be broadening.

Moscow said it had raided the town of Senaki to stop Georgia attacking South Ossetia, another breakaway region. They later said they had left the town.

Georgia said Russian troops had seized the Georgian town of Gori - a claim Moscow and diplomatic sources denied.

As the fighting continued, foreign envoys were pressing for a ceasefire.

Violence erupted in South Ossetia late last week when Georgia launched an overnight assault on the territory.

Russia, which supports the province's bid for separation, then bombed targets throughout Georgia and moved troops into the region and into Abkhazia.

Russian denial

Russia confirmed for the first time on Monday it had advanced beyond the borders of Abkhazia, saying it had launched an operation in the town of Senaki.

Later, a Russian defence official told Russian news agencies that its forces had withdrawn from Senaki and that they had forced out a Georgian unit which could have shelled South Ossetia.

Georgian officials also accused Russian troops of moving into the town of Zugdidi, near Abkhazia.

The Russians had issued an ultimatum to Georgian forces to disarm or face attack, and proceeded to occupy government buildings there, the Georgians said.

And the conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened, with Georgia accusing Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.

"This is a total onslaught," Georgia's National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia told the AFP news agency.

He said Georgian troops were pulling back to defend Tbilisi.

But Russia's defence ministry later issued a statement rejecting the claim, saying there were no Russian troops in Gori.

Diplomatic sources who visited Gori on Monday evening later told the BBC that the town had not been taken.

Local officials in South Ossetia's secessionist government accused Georgia of bombing targets in the capital, Tskhinvali, by helicopter.

Nato plea

On Monday, EU envoys were attempting to broker a ceasefire agreement between Tbilisi and Moscow

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili agreed to the deal, but it was rejected by Russia, which said any negotiations could take place only after Georgian troops had pulled out of the disputed regions.

And leaders from both countries carried on a war of words, with Russia accusing Georgia of genocide, and President Saakashvili hitting back with claims of ethnic cleansing.

Mr Saakashvili accused Russia of trying to overthrow his government and claimed Russia was now in control of the majority of Georgian lands.

Russian officials denied they were seeking a regime change, and reiterated that they were responding to Georgian attacks and protecting Russian citizens - who make up the majority of the population of South Ossetia.

BBC diplomatic correspondent Bridget Kendall says the further Russia penetrates into Georgian territory, the harder it is for Moscow to claim it occupies the high ground.

But, our correspondent adds, the worrying question is - does the Russian leadership care about its reputation abroad any more?

Meanwhile, the Red Cross said it has visited several hospitals in Georgia and on Russian territory and warned that the humanitarian situation "remains very serious".

"It's still too early to say how many people have been killed or injured by the fighting," said Dominik Stillhart, the organisation's deputy director of operations.

"But our visits to these hospitals confirm that local medical facilities are dealing with a large number of wounded and dead."

In other developments:
• The UN security council is to be briefed by its peacekeeping department on apparent incursions in to Georgian territory.
• Georgia's foreign minister is due to meet Nato officials on Tuesday. Russia has also requested an emergency meeting with Nato, saying the organisation should hear Moscow's side before making any decisions.
• The US and several European nations have begun to evacuate hundreds of their citizens from Georgia.
• Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland issue a joint statement saying that as "once-captive nations of Eastern Europe" they share a "deep concern" about Russia's actions towards Georgia.
• The G7 group of developed countries issues a strongly-worded statement calling on Russia to accept the EU-brokered ceasefire agreement

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm)

[Burris]

Where is the hippy outrage over this? Is it not trendy, as it's Russia and not the US? This really pisses me off. Where are the masses of peace loving protestors? Why is it when a tiny democracy is invaded the world is silent?
Right here, I'm pretty appalled about it. Especially this:


Russian troops in Georgia advance

Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, as the conflict between the two neighbours appears to be broadening.

Moscow said it had raided the town of Senaki to stop Georgia attacking South Ossetia, another breakaway region. They later said they had left the town.

Georgia said Russian troops had seized the Georgian town of Gori - a claim Moscow and diplomatic sources denied.

As the fighting continued, foreign envoys were pressing for a ceasefire.

Violence erupted in South Ossetia late last week when Georgia launched an overnight assault on the territory.

Russia, which supports the province's bid for separation, then bombed targets throughout Georgia and moved troops into the region and into Abkhazia.

Russian denial

Russia confirmed for the first time on Monday it had advanced beyond the borders of Abkhazia, saying it had launched an operation in the town of Senaki.

Later, a Russian defence official told Russian news agencies that its forces had withdrawn from Senaki and that they had forced out a Georgian unit which could have shelled South Ossetia.

Georgian officials also accused Russian troops of moving into the town of Zugdidi, near Abkhazia.

The Russians had issued an ultimatum to Georgian forces to disarm or face attack, and proceeded to occupy government buildings there, the Georgians said.

And the conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened, with Georgia accusing Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.

"This is a total onslaught," Georgia's National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia told the AFP news agency.

He said Georgian troops were pulling back to defend Tbilisi.

But Russia's defence ministry later issued a statement rejecting the claim, saying there were no Russian troops in Gori.

Diplomatic sources who visited Gori on Monday evening later told the BBC that the town had not been taken.

Local officials in South Ossetia's secessionist government accused Georgia of bombing targets in the capital, Tskhinvali, by helicopter.

Nato plea

On Monday, EU envoys were attempting to broker a ceasefire agreement between Tbilisi and Moscow

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili agreed to the deal, but it was rejected by Russia, which said any negotiations could take place only after Georgian troops had pulled out of the disputed regions.

And leaders from both countries carried on a war of words, with Russia accusing Georgia of genocide, and President Saakashvili hitting back with claims of ethnic cleansing.

Mr Saakashvili accused Russia of trying to overthrow his government and claimed Russia was now in control of the majority of Georgian lands.

Russian officials denied they were seeking a regime change, and reiterated that they were responding to Georgian attacks and protecting Russian citizens - who make up the majority of the population of South Ossetia.

BBC diplomatic correspondent Bridget Kendall says the further Russia penetrates into Georgian territory, the harder it is for Moscow to claim it occupies the high ground.

But, our correspondent adds, the worrying question is - does the Russian leadership care about its reputation abroad any more?

Meanwhile, the Red Cross said it has visited several hospitals in Georgia and on Russian territory and warned that the humanitarian situation "remains very serious".

"It's still too early to say how many people have been killed or injured by the fighting," said Dominik Stillhart, the organisation's deputy director of operations.

"But our visits to these hospitals confirm that local medical facilities are dealing with a large number of wounded and dead."

In other developments:
• The UN security council is to be briefed by its peacekeeping department on apparent incursions in to Georgian territory.
• Georgia's foreign minister is due to meet Nato officials on Tuesday. Russia has also requested an emergency meeting with Nato, saying the organisation should hear Moscow's side before making any decisions.
• The US and several European nations have begun to evacuate hundreds of their citizens from Georgia.
• Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland issue a joint statement saying that as "once-captive nations of Eastern Europe" they share a "deep concern" about Russia's actions towards Georgia.
• The G7 group of developed countries issues a strongly-worded statement calling on Russia to accept the EU-brokered ceasefire agreement

source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm)

I still don't see any protestors.

Why don't hippies burn effigies of Putin, what about burning the Russian flag? Or would burning the flag of a despotic dictatorship not fly with them? Disgusts me.

[Burris]

This is all a god damn test. Russia sees the world cower was they crush their tiny neighbor.

It's like Germany and the Sudetenland. This is only going to get worse.

[Rob]

The "right here" was referring to me.

I've given up on street protesting, I've been to too many that accomplished exactly zero. The governments of this day and age aren't swayed by that sort of thing, if they ever were.

[Ska Wars]

Seems Russia is making sly threats to Poland's minister now after they announced they would send their own peace keepers to the region. Can't find a source not in Polish though, anyone read one yet?

[Burris]

Poland has been great on this matter.

They've really become a Western society. Where they belonged to be after WWII. God I hate the Russian government

[Ska Wars]

Poland has been great on this matter.

My girlfriend is Polish so she translates their papers for me. To be honest, BBC/CNN has really been slooooow on reporting the full story with this.

[Burris]

Yes. My friend said the Russians are already moving on Tblisi. Or preparing to.

[Ska Wars]

Has Sarkozy even made a statement about this yet? For that matter has the UN even decided on the wording? This really is a fucking shambles.

To be honest Burris, I usually don't agree with you politically, but this time I'm pretty much with you. The annoying this is you know the Russian's will keep playing that 'genocide' card over the initial arty barrage. Yes I admit that was a dumb dumb move on behalf of the Georgians, but that hardly warrants the response of Russia, especially since Russia has been arming the Ossetians on the sly for the past 6 months.

[Puddle]

Do you think this may be a move for expansion. Or do they just want the oil pipeline in Georgia?

[Burris]

Sarkozy is flying to Russia to demand that the Russians sign a peace agreement already signed by Georgia.

I doubt they will. The west will just keep turning a blind eye till we're back at cold war borders.

[Ska Wars]

Do you think this may be a move for expansion. Or do they just want the oil pipeline in Georgia?

Can't see it being a move for the pipe line, or atleast not in the obvious way. Russia has always tried to run a monopoly on gas and oil, often cutting off countries that piss them off (see Poland), which keeps other countries in check (see Germany). However, with Finland expanding their industry more and getting ready to build their own pipelines to Europe, it is possible this is a factor.

I think it's more about Russia just trying their luck in response to NATO's expansion into the East. The annoying thing is is that if NATO did threaten to get involved I reckon they would back off as they're in no state for a full scale war, just the same way we arn't. But I can't see NATO taking that chance, especially not now. Honestly, this is going to go really bad for Georgia, and it seems the world is gonna watch and let it happen. It's no wonder people are drawing comparisons with the failure of the League of Nations.

@ Burris. Cheers mate, I found fuck all about it in the British press so far. Can't see Russia going for it, but you never know, Sarkozy did an ok job with Israel/Palestine so maybe he'll pull a blinder.

[Burris]

Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltics all seem to be combining their political will.

I doubt it's enough. This is all very terrifying. I am utterly scared for the world, and the Western news is more concerned about John Edwards and the National Conventions. We're just as complacent and blissfully ignorant as we were during the interwar years.

If I had money I'd give it. I can barely afford my books.

This is a cause I'd fight for.

[Puddle]

Russia will not stop. No diplomatic jesture will make a difference. Once they start they keep on going like a flood. Not sure how this will effect the stability of the region. Too early to tell, but I think they will topple the government.

[Ska Wars]

I don't envy the Ukraine's position right now to be honest. Poland is pretty safe as it's a member of NATO, but I think things are going to get pretty tense for Ukraine in the next few years.

Poland's president is bloody loving it though. That right wing, medieval psycho has been dying for a chance to go toe to toe with Russia for years and he's milking this for everything it's worth. I just pray this incident doesn't make the bastard more popular. We've just got rid of his twin brother, so we don't need this guy getting a chance at a second term.

[Burris]

A small number of Chechen "mujahadeen" have crossed into Georgia apparently.

The whole Caucus wants full independence from Russia (Except Ossetia and Abkhazia, OF COURSE.) , but Russia is so heavy handed in asserting its dominance that it looks unlikely.

I hope Chechens kill Putin and his lapdog.

Fucking scum.

[Ska Wars]

A small number of Chechen "mujahadeen" have crossed into Georgia apparently.

That's not gonna look good for them. Putin is already throwing around accussations of war crimes, so how long before 'Beslan' gets mentioned (maybe not Beslan, as Putin is still denying that was a failed 'sting', but one of the other Chechen attacks).

[Burris]

Georgian's have supported Chechen independence in the past.

The Russian media has been trying to portray the Georgian people and government as genocidal maniacs for almost a decade.

WHY IS OBAMA ASKING FOR A SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION? THEY MEAN SHIT AND WONT PASS WITH RUSSIA HAVING VETO.

[President Shrub]

ugh if there's gonna be ww3 can they at least delay it for 3 more years. I want to finish my degree before I enlist lol.

(yes serious, yes naive)

[Zirconium Blade]

ugh if there's gonna be ww3 can they at least delay it for 3 more years. I want to finish my degree before I enlist lol.

(yes serious, yes naive)

:D

[PrivateParts]

Its a good thing communism isnt a threat anymore. :|

[Cheeto]

Its a good thing communism isnt a threat anymore. :|
Nope, now we can go to war with the Russians as fellow capitalists. Hurrah!

Fucking Putin. I'd call him an idiot except he's a genius. An asshole genius, but still brilliant.

[Koobazaur]

Seems Russia is making sly threats to Poland's minister now after they announced they would send their own peace keepers to the region. Can't find a source not in Polish though, anyone read one yet?

Go ahead and post, I will translate.

edit: been doing some reading, apparently the polish president is planning to go to Georgia. Bush is supposedly in full support of this, and also asking Russia to stop. interesting.

[Faceman]

So far I don't see World War III starting over this but in the past, it has been the precedent.

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea for Georgia to say "Fine, take South Ossetian and leave." Of course that won't be enough and was only a cover for the real reason Russia is there now.

Think about it, Russia had this planned. You don't mobilize an army on the border of a country overnight. They planned this for a while. Shame.


Oh and hey Burris I figured you knew this already, but it's only cool to hate America.

[Koobazaur]

Yea, unless a bunch of other countries jump in to defend Georgia, I don't think this will escalate to WW3. As I said, the location is too remote and the countries too unimportant to drag in the rest of the world. I also bet US would be too reluctant to join in, having most of its forces in Iraq.

[Ska Wars]

edit: been doing some reading, apparently the polish president is planning to go to Georgia.

Ugh Jesus. Honestly I think that guy should be kept in a box and brought out once a year to remind people to not re-elect him.

[Zirconium Blade]

It's effectively over: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... BOf%2BGori (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Georgia-Russia-War-Civilians-Killed-And-Wounded-As-Bombers-Attack-Georgian-City-Of-Gori/Article/200808215075784?lpos=World%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15075784_Georgia-Russia%2BWar%253A%2BCivilians%2BKilled%2BAnd%2BWou nded%2BAs%2BBombers%2BAttack%2BGeorgian%2BCity%2BO f%2BGori)

[Cheeto]

See, if we had robo warriors, I would be all in support of our robot armies going over and giving the Russians the sound ass thrashing they deserve. And then giving South Ossetia to the Georgians just to twist the knife.

[SimonS]

its over? that sucked

[Puddle]

Don't be fooled it ain't over yet.

Simmons your sig would look better with brest implants.

[Burris]

It's effectively over: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... BOf%2BGori (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Georgia-Russia-War-Civilians-Killed-And-Wounded-As-Bombers-Attack-Georgian-City-Of-Gori/Article/200808215075784?lpos=World%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15075784_Georgia-Russia%2BWar%253A%2BCivilians%2BKilled%2BAnd%2BWou nded%2BAs%2BBombers%2BAttack%2BGeorgian%2BCity%2BO f%2BGori)

I wouldn't go that far.

Georgia is leaving the CIS, ending agreements with Russia and now saying Russia is an occupying force.

NATO says the end to the conflict is not enough too.

I think this will fast track Georgia's membership, maybe Ukraine too.

[Ska Wars]

See, if we had robo warriors, I would be all in support of our robot armies going over and giving the Russians the sound ass thrashing they deserve. And then giving South Ossetia to the Georgians just to twist the knife.


its over? that sucked

Keep this crap for RN please guys.

As has already been said, this is far from over. If it fast tracks them into NATO though that wouldn't be such a bad thing.

[Puddle]

Six point plan...


“The first [principle] – a commitment not to use force,” President Medvedev said. “The second – complete cessation of military actions. The third – free access for humanitarian assistance. The fourth – the return of Georgian armed forces to places of their permanent location. The fifth: the Russian peacekeeping forces take additional security measures. The sixth: the start of international discussions on the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and ways of providing for their stable security.”



Um I'm a bit confused WTF is russia Up to?

[Burris]

Additional security measures...

[Faceman]

South Ossetia and Abkhazia will goto the Russians.

[Burris]

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article ... _UNSC_Veto (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30911_Obama_Calls_for_UN_to_Pass_Resolution_Condem ning_Russia_Forgets_Russia_Has_UNSC_Veto)

Barack Hussein Obama shows his knowledge of foreign affairs and UN bodies.

[Cheeto]

See, if we had robo warriors, I would be all in support of our robot armies going over and giving the Russians the sound ass thrashing they deserve. And then giving South Ossetia to the Georgians just to twist the knife.

Keep this crap for RN please guys.

As has already been said, this is far from over. If it fast tracks them into NATO though that wouldn't be such a bad thing.
OH I had a very good point in there. I think Russia needs to have a penalty for how they've handled this situation, however while the most expedient option (military reprisal) would be effective enough, it would be the most destructive and wasteful in terms of money and lives.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30911_Obama_Calls_for_UN_to_Pass_Resolution_Condem ning_Russia_Forgets_Russia_Has_UNSC_Veto

Barack Hussein Obama shows his knowledge of foreign affairs and UN bodies.
You remind me of Reverend James Manning, you just love his middle name. :-D

It's probably symbolic as much as anything else. Make it look like the UN actually has a spine.

[Burris]

It's hard to pass a security council measure condemning one of it's founding members with veto powers. He doesn't understand the difference between the UNSC and the General Assembly.

[Guy Montag]

I don't think threatening a nuclear power with military action would work out well anyway.

[Ska Wars]

It's hard to pass a security council measure condemning one of it's founding members with veto powers. He doesn't understand the difference between the UNSC and the General Assembly.

From what I gather, the theory is rather than actually get it passed, it's intended to show Russia that they have few allies on the council. It's an interesting theory, but alas this is the UN we're talking about. I doubt even half the countries would show an interest, let alone pass an oppinion on it.

Glad Sarkozy got his finger out of his arse anyway and realised he has a bloody job to do. Let's just hope the 6 point to peace doesn't turn into a Russian '10 year plan'.


I don't think threatening a nuclear power with military action would work out well anyway.

Dunno about that. Pakistan and India have been doing it for years.

[Burris]

[quote=Burris]It's hard to pass a security council measure condemning one of it's founding members with veto powers. He doesn't understand the difference between the UNSC and the General Assembly.

From what I gather, the theory is rather than actually get it passed, it's intended to show Russia that they have few allies on the council. It's an interesting theory, but alas this is the UN we're talking about. I doubt even half the countries would show an interest, let alone pass an oppinion on it.

Glad Sarkozy got his finger out of his arse anyway and realised he has a bloody job to do. Let's just hope the 6 point to peace doesn't turn into a Russian '10 year plan'.


I don't think threatening a nuclear power with military action would work out well anyway.

Dunno about that. Pakistan and India have been doing it for years.[/quote:1yy563h4]

The point is Obama doesn't get it. You can't send a message via the security council. They don't mean shit. He's living in the clinton era and it doesn't exist anymore. He needs to grow some balls. The UNSC is the League of Nations.

I really don't think he knew. That sounds like political spin to me...

[Penguin]

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30911_Obama_Calls_for_UN_to_Pass_Resolution_Condem ning_Russia_Forgets_Russia_Has_UNSC_Veto

Barack Hussein Obama shows his knowledge of foreign affairs and UN bodies.
Hahaha, you linked to LGF.

[Burris]

It was sent to me by a friend, and I saw it on the news prior and I was too lazy to look for a better source.

I saw it with my own eyes. Oh well.

[Guy Montag]

Dunno about that. Pakistan and India have been doing it for years.

And its worked out really well hasn't it?

And of course there is a difference between a nuclear power who can blow up his neighbors and shit in his own backyard, and a nuclear power that can blow up any place on the planet.

[Ska Wars]

And its worked out really well hasn't it?

Well by your system of measurment (nuke war being bad), yeah it has worked out pretty well as no one has seriously made threats, nor will they. The cold war fear of constant doomsday is kinda outdated now. Can't see any nation being willing to ever use them, which kinda makes them less of a threatening tool, hence the whole hissy fit over puting anti ballistic missile platforms in Poland and Czech Republic (or even going as far back as RAF Fylingdales) as they even further remove the 'threat'.

The fact the US and Britain has nukes coming outta the arse didn't stop Iran threatening them both and even going as far as attacking British Navy units. It's just a wild card that gets applied to every game, but is of no real value anymore.

[Guy Montag]

What I was trying to illustrate was that nuclear powers generally don't back down from military threats. Relations between Pakistan and India certainly haven't improved since they have been firing rockets over each other.

And while I don't lay awake at night worrying about nuclear holocaust, I think any saber rattling with Russia would have no effect or backfire, regardless of how many countries were threatening them. Because they have nukes.

[Burris]

If nothing else bad happens Sarkozy should get the peace prize.

It's been going to absolutely unworthy people lately.

[Penguin]

Maybe nukes are too far back in humanity's short memory. One of these days things will get ugly and they might get a nuclear reminder.

[Faceman]

[quote="Ska Wars":1ovlanxs]Dunno about that. Pakistan and India have been doing it for years.

And its worked out really well hasn't it?

And of course there is a difference between a nuclear power who can blow up his neighbors and shit in his own backyard, and a nuclear power that can blow up any place on the planet.[/quote:1ovlanxs]

Well at least they keep their war mostly in Kashmir and mainly through proxy.

[Cheeto]

If nothing else bad happens Sarkozy should get the peace prize.

It's been going to absolutely unworthy people lately.
Would be nice if they didn't give it out every year and instead only give it out when there's someone who deserves it.

[Dr. Crawford]

and here we go again

russia continues into georgia.

its obvious that they have something else on their mind other than ossetia

[Cheeto]

and here we go again

russia continues into georgia.

its obvious that they have something else on their mind other than ossetia
Yeah, they want everyone to know they're still powerful and still should be taken seriously.

Remember that Putin (who is still running the country, whether or not there's a new president now) was a member of the KGB and was quite successful there. So he's a holdover from the bad old days and has done fantastically at reviving Russian strength. Hell there are summer camps for kids dedicated to him. It's only a matter of time before they hang pictures of him everywhere and rename St. Petersberg again to Putingrad.

[Puddle]

I knew it was only a stall tactic. Also the russians and rebels are lootng. Didn't see that coming. Soon we will hear about the rapes and atrocities that will go unpunished.

[Zirconium Blade]

Step one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7559252.stm

Can see the headlines soon:
"Humanitarians kidnapped/killed by Russian forces, US declares war on Russia," inc Fallout3.

[Guy Montag]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/2008813153517926662.html

So much for a ceasefire.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jxWSXsJwitQHhYrvd-DUbRfgQdEA



On Wednesday, he stepped up the ante against Washington, asking it to choose between a "relatively virtual" relationship with Tbilisi and a "partnership (with Russia) on questions that require collective action."


"If you want us to put pressure on Iran, stay out of Georgia K?"

[Puddle]

Hmm..
Looks like bush is licking his nuts again.
I'm glad they are bringing humanitarian aid, but I still don't trust bush either.


"We expect Russia to honor its commitment to let in all forms of humanitarian assistance. We expect Russia to ensure that all lines of communication and transport, including seaports, airports, roads and airspace, remain open for the delivery of humanitarian assistance and for civilian transit," Bush said at the White House.

Russia sent troops and tanks into the breakaway Georgia region of South Ossetia last week after Georgia's military acted to clamp down on Russian-linked separatists there. Separatists in South Ossetia want independence -- or unification with North Ossetia, which is in Russia.

Russian forces have since moved out of South Ossetia and into other parts of Georgia.
Bush said he expected Russia to honor a truce agreement made Tuesday.

"We expect Russia to meet its commitment to cease all military activities in Georgia, and we expect all Russian forces that entered Georgia in recent days to withdraw from that country," Bush said.

The president said he was sending Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Europe to express "America's unwavering support" for the Georgian government.



Anything to do with oil and he's got his fingers in there.

[Burris]

Just because it has an oil pipeline doesn't mean that's why we're helping there. :rolleyes:

[Puddle]

Just because it has an oil pipeline doesn't mean that's why we're helping there. :rolleyes:

I know but Bush and Chaney are real quick to go where the oil is.
The other fact is Bush is kinda forcing Russia to play their hand.
I don't think they will stop untill the government is toppled.

I also like the cold war statement like when Russia went into Czeck.

Rice

Rice said Russia cannot act like its Soviet forebears.

"This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia, where Russia can threaten its neighbors, occupy a capital and get away with it," Rice said Wednesday, referring to the Soviet Union sending troops into Prague that year to stop the Czechoslovak government's attempts at liberalization.


I Kinda liked that statement.

[Invig]

The U.S. is helping because Georgia is the 3rd largest force helping out in Iraq right now. We are obligated to do something.

[Ska Wars]

The U.S. is helping because Georgia is the 3rd largest force helping out in Iraq right now.

Yeah but that force was due to be reduced to 200/300 in the next few months anyway.

[Burris]

Am I the only one who sees what the US is doing?

With US boots on the ground, not just aid workers, do you really think Russia's going to have the balls to attack? ESPECIALLY A HUMANITARIAN MISSION?

I bet you any money there's secret crates full of guns and ammo too! :)

[Guy Montag]

Yeah that seemed likely to me too. Or possibly Bush is crazier than any of us ever imagined and is hoping Russia still attacks and gives us a excuse.

[Faceman]

Anything to do with oil and he's got his fingers in there.

How ignorant can you be?



The U.S. is helping because Georgia is the 3rd largest force helping out in Iraq right now.

Yeah but that force was due to be reduced to 200/300 in the next few months anyway.

So? They were still there and helping out. Showing the same back to them is what being friendly nations is about.


Yeah that seemed likely to me too. Or possibly Bush is crazier than any of us ever imagined and is hoping Russia still attacks and gives us a excuse.

An excuse to do what? Bomb them and start WWIII? And for what benefits? Whatever they be, they do not outweigh the consequences.

[Guy Montag]

Well like I said, he would have to be crazy.

[Penguin]

"If you want us to put pressure on Iran, stay out of Georgia K?"
Like Russia was going to put pressure on Iran anyway.

[TylerDurden]

i heard the curds (don't know how to spell it) who work with the U.S in Afghanistan, went and helped russia move into Georgia ?

[Faceman]

I don't see how really. The Kurds are in northern Iraq and probably only in the south of Turkey. That'd be on the opposite side of Georgia.

Have a source on that?

[Ska Wars]

So? They were still there and helping out. Showing the same back to them is what being friendly nations is about.


Honestly doubt higher ups see it like that mate. It's all brutal mathematics at the end of the day. Cost of Georgian Troops in Iraq Vs Cost of helping Georgia out, if they don't add it then it doesn't get done.

The US interest in Georgia is more to do with undermining Russia, and their own plans for their anti ballistic missile system than trying to 'pay them back'. If the general policy was to reward countries for their survice in Iraq then the US would of revised their Polish visa policy (like they promised they would).

Don't get me wrong, it's nice what the US is doing, I just don't think it has anything to do with Georgia's role in Iraq, as we all know they only did it to try and get into NATO, a tactic, which if anyone remembers, failed quite badly before this conflict began.

But yeah, this has nothing to do with oil or gas as the pipe line in Georgia is owned by BP (a British company) already. Loved Ukraine's response to Russia about using their harbors from now on though :p

[Puddle]

[But yeah, this has nothing to do with oil or gas as the pipe line in Georgia is owned by BP (a British company) already. Loved Ukraine's response to Russia about using their harbors from now on though :p

Ya ska it's strangley Ironic that the bush administration will rush headlong into a conflict that has an energy concern.



Honestly doubt higher ups see it like that mate. It's all brutal mathematics at the end of the day. Cost of Georgian Troops in Iraq Vs Cost of helping Georgia out, if they don't add it then it doesn't get done.

The US interest in Georgia is more to do with undermining Russia, and their own plans for their anti ballistic missile system than trying to 'pay them back'. If the general policy was to reward countries for their survice in Iraq then the US would of revised their Polish visa policy (like they promised they would).

I was looking at that as well. My bud thinks this could start a nuke war between the Ruskies and the U.S.
I just shook my head and told him to watch more Michael Moore Movies.

[Cheeto]

ICBM's are an archaic weapon for a time when two massive super powers were alone in the world. Now there's a hundred different, much more effective ways of delivering death to your opponent, many of them don't even require bloodshed. If this were to escalate to the US and Russia actually taking pot shots at each other, it wouldn't involve just those two, and would probably be pretty minor in terms of scale of military forces on the ground.

[Faceman]

The US interest in Georgia is more to do with undermining Russia, and their own plans for their anti ballistic missile system than trying to 'pay them back'. If the general policy was to reward countries for their survice in Iraq then the US would of revised their Polish visa policy (like they promised they would).

I'm not familiar with the Polish visa situation but I can see what you are saying about undermining Russia. I don't know about paying them back but maybe more like keeping them in line. Georgia might be another good location for a missile shield/joining NATO/jump point for any conflict in the area.

[Puddle]

Anything to do with oil and he's got his fingers in there.

How ignorant can you be?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7719488

Actually what I suspected did happen. They needed to close the pipeline now Iran will get more demand. This is now in the U.S. and other nations intrest watching Iran and it's nuke program to halt the war.


If the conflict has still not died down enough for BP to turn the gas pumps in Baku back on, Turkey will need to make up for the lost supplies by turning to Iran.
"The resulting gas needs will be met from Iran," the Botas source said. "There will not be any supply problems."


Just needed to do some more research. I have a friend who is adimant this is the only reason the U.S. is puttin it's foot in the conflict. I also realy could not find fault to his reasoning. We do have the pressure on russia ans SKA said to. However they did nothing in chechnya. Since they were declaired Terrorists, I expected that. Considering the school incident...

[Burris]

We are not going there because of oil. For fucks sake. Go smoke some weed and join a impromptu drum circle

[Puddle]

We are not going there because of oil. For fucks sake. Go smoke some weed and join a impromptu drum circle
HAHA! Haven't done the drum circle in a while.
I'm not trying to hit the "Oil" conspiracy button. Just that this is a valid argument. Could be but another reason to put troops on the ground. But I digress..

I myself believe there is something we have not been privy to via the media. Still confused about the cease fire agreement. Think it was a stall tactic. I'm looking into ska's Polish point..

[Ska Wars]

We are not going there because of oil. For fucks sake. Go smoke some weed and join a impromptu drum circle

Chill out Burris. People are allowed to voice their ideas for discussion without you throwing a hissy and calling everyone hippies.



I'm not familiar with the Polish visa situation but I can see what you are saying about undermining Russia. I don't know about paying them back but maybe more like keeping them in line. Georgia might be another good location for a missile shield/joining NATO/jump point for any conflict in the area.

Basically 60% of Polish work visas to the US are refused, so Poland wanted this to change if they dedicated troops to Iraq. The US agreed, but has so far done nothing to remedy this. As a result the Polish government are giving less and less support to Iraq.

As you say though, it could be to keep them in line, but I'm veering more towards the anti missile sites as the US has been quite desperate to get them set up as far East as possible. For example, they offered to 'moderize' Poland's army in exchange for some land near their Eastern border (the US has since pulled out though as relations with Warsaw have soured, and gone for Czech Republic instead).


However they did nothing in chechnya. Since they were declaired Terrorists, I expected that. Considering the school incident...

Chechnya is an interesting one really. I think the US mainly didn't get involved as they were afraid of another 'blow back' (Bin Laden for example). Not defending the Chechen's tactics, but alot of the Russian attacks are unreported in the West, so it's not a massive suprise they upped their guerilla campaign. As far as the school goes, it's worth reading into it from sources, especially German. Alot of leaked reports seem to suggest the reason it turned into such a blood bath is because the Russian army believed it was a diversion for a much bigger attack in the industrial region. As a result, Russian special forces in the area were trying to set up a sort of 'sting' operation and left the school siege to standard infantry and Police. Obviously this went totally tits up and there was no larger attack, so a number of Russian HQ officers took early retirment (a few of which have died of heart attacks in the past few years). All very cloak and dagger and alot of it is probably rumours, but definately worth reading into if you're bored one day :p

[Puddle]

Chechnya is an interesting one really. I think the US mainly didn't get involved as they were afraid of another 'blow back' (Bin Laden for example). Not defending the Chechen's tactics, but alot of the Russian attacks are unreported in the West, so it's not a massive suprise they upped their guerilla campaign. As far as the school goes, it's worth reading into it from sources, especially German. Alot of leaked reports seem to suggest the reason it turned into such a blood bath is because the Russian army believed it was a diversion for a much bigger attack in the industrial region. As a result, Russian special forces in the area were trying to set up a sort of 'sting' operation and left the school siege to standard infantry and Police. Obviously this went totally tits up and there was no larger attack, so a number of Russian HQ officers took early retirment (a few of which have died of heart attacks in the past few years). All very cloak and dagger and alot of it is probably rumours, but definately worth reading into if you're bored one day :p

I watched a documentary that was unbiased towards the Terrorist view. After watching it I was like WTF? Woh the russians could have saved alot of lives by doing things different. It was actualy on women soucide bombers. Those chicks were fucking scarry! I mean the footage was fillmed by them and they were ready to blow the kids to hell with them. You could see the hate in her eyes it was just bone chilling!

[Cheeto]

Chechnya is an interesting one really. I think the US mainly didn't get involved as they were afraid of another 'blow back' (Bin Laden for example). Not defending the Chechen's tactics, but alot of the Russian attacks are unreported in the West, so it's not a massive suprise they upped their guerilla campaign. As far as the school goes, it's worth reading into it from sources, especially German. Alot of leaked reports seem to suggest the reason it turned into such a blood bath is because the Russian army believed it was a diversion for a much bigger attack in the industrial region. As a result, Russian special forces in the area were trying to set up a sort of 'sting' operation and left the school siege to standard infantry and Police. Obviously this went totally tits up and there was no larger attack, so a number of Russian HQ officers took early retirment (a few of which have died of heart attacks in the past few years). All very cloak and dagger and alot of it is probably rumours, but definately worth reading into if you're bored one day :p
"Heart attacks" riiiiiight. *winkwinknudgenudge*

Shame that thing went so badly. Honestly I think the best result would have been for Chechyns in that school to get shot to death repeatedly while the children and their teachers escaped unharmed. But thanks to the Red Army bungling that one up, a lot of really innocent people died for no good fucking reason.

[Faceman]

We do have the pressure on russia ans SKA said to. However they did nothing in chechnya. Since they were declaired Terrorists, I expected that. Considering the school incident...

But Chechnya is rich in oil and pushes out a billion tons a year I believe. You didn't see our presence there. Now I don't know if we supported local factions to fight the Russians like we did in Afghanistan. For all we know, they did fight a proxy war there and could be doing the same now with Iraqi Kurds into Georgia through smuggling routes. Unfortunately information like this is never published and you have to believe what you read with a grain of salt.

The enemy of our enemy is our friend. I could see the US using Islamic militants to fight or tie up nations that bother us to teach a lesson. It's just when other nations use them against us do we act.

But back to what you think, oil. It's hard to say definitely so, but also hard to say not so. I'll give you that.

EDIT: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm

US and Poland sign defence deal

Poland: Oh shit Georgia, where's my pen?

[Burris]

I think this may backfire on Russia.

Eastern Europe is probably like "Oh shit these guys are nuts."

[Ska Wars]

EDIT: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm

US and Poland sign defence deal

Poland: Oh shit Georgia, where's my pen?

Yeah just reading it now. I go away from my desk for one minute! :D

Wonder what parts of the original deal the US haven't agreed with. From what I remember the original deal was full moderisation of their armoured units, air defence and some of their Navy units.

[Puddle]

But Chechnya is rich in oil and pushes out a billion tons a year I believe. You didn't see our presence there. Now I don't know if we supported local factions to fight the Russians like we did in Afghanistan. For all we know, they did fight a proxy war there and could be doing the same now with Iraqi Kurds into Georgia through smuggling routes. Unfortunately information like this is never published and you have to believe what you read with a grain of salt.

The enemy of our enemy is our friend. I could use the US using Islamic militants to fight or tie up nations that bother us to teach a lesson. It's just when other nations use them against us do we act.

But back to what you think, oil. It's hard to say definitely so, but also hard to say not so. I'll give you that.

The argued point I got was that due to the war on terror that the U.S. was using to invade afganinistan and Iraq. Politicly it would have been a bad move for Bush to do anything about chechnya. Altho a whithouse memo(Rumour) stated he was looking at some sort of measures.


EDIT: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm

US and Poland sign defence deal

:orly:

Poland: Oh shit, where's my pen?

:ninja: Ok did some more pokin around the net. What do you think Ska? Cus this seems to realy put pressure on the Ruskies. They have stated retaliation may be coming against poland. I'm wondering what?!?!? Parlement still needs to approve it.

[Ska Wars]

:ninja: Ok did some more pokin around the net. What do you think Ska? Cus this seems to realy put pressure on the Ruskies. They have stated retaliation may be coming against poland. I'm wondering what?!?!? Parlement still needs to approve it.

Me and the girlfriend usually argue this alot so I have my oppinion well planned lol

Basically, if the US didn't help get Poland's armed forces up to scratch then they'd be insane to accept the deal. By accepting it they're putting themselves back into Russia firing line (although to be honest, I find it very hard to believe Russia ever stopped point nukes at them, us and the USA) and risking a possible ground war with Russia, one that they stand no chance of winning or even surviving at the moment.

As the US will upgrade sections of their armed forces though I see it as a not bad deal for Poland. It'll increase tensions with Russia so no doubt they'll get their gas cut off again at some point this year, but their current Prime Minister is quite good at patching things up with the ruskies so he'll probably fix it. Poland's President is a bit of a twat to be honest and is always insulting the Russian's as he's ultra right wing, anti communist, but hopefully having a shiney new army will make his e-penis grow and he won't feel the need to refer to Putin as 'The butcher of Grozny' . . . again.

With a topped up military, US defense system and a place in NATO firmly established, Poland might finally have a half decent security standing plus if Russian did invade they'd also come under the EU armed forces, as Poland is the official end of the Schengen now. I think they're pretty safe to be honest unless things change with Ukraine or Russian 'Peace Keepers' start appearing in Belarus (not a totally alien concept) or the Baltic fleet docks at Kaliningrad :p

As for the US with the Checens, I've not read anything that suggests they were armed by the US, but as Face says, it's not exactly published stuff and the CIA is quite quiet about who they arm until it goes wrong e.g. Bin Laden or the IRA in the 70s and 80s (cheers for that btw Reagan, ya cunt! :D )

[Faceman]

The argued point I got was that due to the war on terror that the U.S. was using to invade afganinistan and Iraq. Politicly it would have been a bad move for Bush to do anything about chechnya. Altho a whithouse memo(Rumour) stated he was looking at some sort of measures.

Afghanistan was about someone turning the proxy onto us. Once that was done, they went in. Chechnya is still fought through proxy. So the nation looks to be fighting for independence but are being supported by other nations that just want Russians dead, IMO.

[Burris]

I was looking at the Russian population... I always thought it was around 250 mil. I can't believe it's only ~150 million.

The EU and the US really only need to make sure China stays away from Russia and they'll be doing fine.

[Cheeto]

I was looking at the Russian population... I always thought it was around 250 mil. I can't believe it's only ~150 million.

The EU and the US really only need to make sure China stays away from Russia and they'll be doing fine.
Yeah Russia's birth rate was actually lower than their death rate for awhile (might still be) so the government started paying young people to get pregnant.

As for the China/Russia thing, probably won't be hard. They've never really liked each other, even when they were both commies. Russia always felt China was going to invade and take Siberia and it's resources, China always felt Russia treated them like the special-ed commies.

[Ska Wars]

As for the China/Russia thing, probably won't be hard. They've never really liked each other, even when they were both commies. Russia always felt China was going to invade and take Siberia and it's resources, China always felt Russia treated them like the special-ed commies.

LOL Nice summary mate.

[Puddle]

As for the China/Russia thing, probably won't be hard. They've never really liked each other, even when they were both commies. Russia always felt China was going to invade and take Siberia and it's resources, China always felt Russia treated them like the special-ed commies.

LOL Nice summary mate.

Ditto,

I'm waiting to see the Ruckies next move...

[Puddle]

Glen Becks Article
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/14/ ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/14/beck.georgia/index.html)

A good read. I've allways enjoyed watchin his show.

"This is for America. This is for NATO. This is for Bush."

[Mr. Burns]

I was looking at the Russian population... I always thought it was around 250 mil. I can't believe it's only ~150 million.

The EU and the US really only need to make sure China stays away from Russia and they'll be doing fine.
I bet China would supply the Russians under the table. Think about it: who becomes THE world power if the US gets into a costly war with Russia? Could it be the nuclear power with the world's most populous army and nonexistent ethics?

[Burris]

It might hurt us economically, but we can cut our ties with China if need be, we proved for a century plus we can operate on our own just fine. That's the whole thing, and I think China is wholly aware of that. Not to mention business men in China have so much influence over those corrupt assholes I wouldn't be surprised if they could keep China out of a conflict.

[Penguin]

It might hurt us economically, but we can cut our ties with China if need be, we proved for a century plus we can operate on our own just fine. That's the whole thing, and I think China is wholly aware of that.

The problem is that during that century we were made up of tradesmen, farmers, and self-made businessmen. Today, America is a nation of middle-managers and consultants. Trite as it might sound, our business is all talk. There will quickly come a time when the rest of the world doesn't need our "let me tell you something" and "I just wanna say" and will stop paying for it. Please don't tell me that reference was too vague for this forum.

This is the Pax Americana. Our primary export is Americanism.

[Ska Wars]

Not to be rude, but which century was this? Hope you're not talking about the first, because France really helped you guys out both financially and materially from the War of independance onwards for quite a while.

To be honest I don't think many countries coudl survive cutting ties with China. I reckon atleast half of the stuff in my room alone has parts from China in them, from electronics to the bits in my heater. Ok, you could produce these in your own country, but we're talking a long time to get industry up to do so. Maybe it's better in the US, but in Britain the manufacturing industry is on it's arse right now.

[Cheeto]

Not to be rude, but which century was this? Hope you're not talking about the first, because France really helped you guys out both financially and materially from the War of independance onwards for quite a while.

To be honest I don't think many countries coudl survive cutting ties with China. I reckon atleast half of the stuff in my room alone has parts from China in them, from electronics to the bits in my heater. Ok, you could produce these in your own country, but we're talking a long time to get industry up to do so. Maybe it's better in the US, but in Britain the manufacturing industry is on it's arse right now.
No the American manufacturing industry is pretty well fucked. Most of the equipment is still there, it's just not in use or is so poorly maintained it can barely function at the rate it's going at. I imagine if the US were to cut ties with China entirely things would be assface insane for a while. You'd have basic consumer goods costing ridiculous amounts of money, you'd have a huge loss of jobs as the retail industry came to a screeching halt (especially Wal-Mart), and you'd have a few near, if not successful, revolutions simply due to the upheaval such an interruption would cause.

Sure, the US has the varied terrain, resources, manpower, and skillset to live on it's own, but this is not the 18th century. This is the 21st, and the nations of the world are interdependent. China would suffer too if the US removed itself. As would the rest of the world, same as if any country removed itself from the global stage. Can you imagine the terror caused by the maple syrup shortages if Canada went isolationist? *shudder*

[Koobazaur]

H8XI2Chc6uQ

Fox News got pwnt. Also looks kinda fakish but I don't think so...

[Zirconium Blade]

Read in the Daily Mail today that Russia were 'lightly' threatening nuclear war on the US for building its anti-missile sites in Poland. Probably taken out of conext slightly but still...

Russia are claiming these sites will be turned on them whilst the US are saying its to defend from rogue states like Iran etc.

[Ska Wars]

It's the Daily Fail mate. Unless you're a racist/anti-semite/homophobe/far right wing then I'd just use it to line my hamsters cage.

[SimonS]

so what's going on with the enemy guys from operation flashpoint and georgia in a perspective for someone who doesn't know loads on this subject

[Ska Wars]

*paging TylerDurden*

[Zirconium Blade]

It's the Daily Fail mate. Unless you're a racist/anti-semite/homophobe/far right wing then I'd just use it to line my hamsters cage.

I only buy the Daily Mail for the sports columns :P

[MeleeMe?]

Read in the Daily Mail today that Russia were 'lightly' threatening nuclear war on the US for building its anti-missile sites in Poland. Probably taken out of conext slightly but still...

Russia are claiming these sites will be turned on them whilst the US are saying its to defend from rogue states like Iran etc.

I read that they were threatening Poland with nukes not us.

They said that it is within the guidelines of some wacko law written in the Cold war that makes it legal to use nuclear weapons on the allies of a country that is armed with nuclear weapons.

..so basically they are saying that they can justifiably nuke Poland for allowing our missile defense system because they are an ally of the USA.

[Ska Wars]

People are taking that way too. Russia said that they would be 'forced' to aim their weapons at Poland if the site was built. However, if you honestly think there was a point where Russia wasn't pointing it's missiles at Poland, Britain and the US then you're a bit naive. It's all just swagger at the end of the day.

@ Steel Blade. Still giving money to a facist paper, gg.

[Zirconium Blade]

Hey hey don't blame the paper here. Its the people that write on it who are the facists. The paper is a just an innocent victim in their facist owners shenanigans.

[Ska Wars]

Hey hey don't blame the paper here. Its the people that write on it who are the facists.

Nazis like crossword puzzles?

[Zirconium Blade]

2 across: who do we hate the most? (5)
Hint: Starts with J.

[Ska Wars]

Hmmmm. Jews is 4 letters so . . . . . is it me? Jamie. Do I win?

[Zirconium Blade]

Fuck :P

[Ska Wars]

:D Epic fail mate, I salute you.

EDIT: Oi! No editing the post :p

[Zirconium Blade]

Aw come on!

[Cheeto]

I love that Russia is whining that we want something capable of shooting down theirs or Iran's ICBM's ready just in case.

"I find it offensive that you want to put a defense against my world ending, god forsaken nuclear arsenal in place! How dare you try and protect yourselves from nuclear oblivion!"

[TylerDurden]

I don't see how really. The Kurds are in northern Iraq and probably only in the south of Turkey. That'd be on the opposite side of Georgia.

Have a source on that?

i have a friend who was a E-4 until about 5 months ago. He was in Afghanistan for a while. all together in the army for like 4 or 5 years i believe. we were talking about it a little, and i recall him saying something about the kurds, and how "we" (as in my friend when he was a E-4) "we worked with the kurds" is what he said. anyhoo, i remember him saying something about how the kurds were over there. so im sorry, im just throwing myself in the thread, im interested. now that i think about it, i don't think he said that.

[Guy Montag]

I love that Russia is whining that we want something capable of shooting down theirs or Iran's ICBM's ready just in case.

"I find it offensive that you want to put a defense against my world ending, god forsaken nuclear arsenal in place! How dare you try and protect yourselves from nuclear oblivion!"


Plus we are talking about 10 whole missiles, against their ~5k warheads. And who knows how well they even work.

[Puddle]

Hmm I guess they consider raming tanks through barracades is "Pulling Out."
:orly:

[Faceman]

H8XI2Chc6uQ

Fox News got pwnt. Also looks kinda fakish but I don't think so...

That woman is an idiot. Believing Russian propaganda. No one can verify that they ran over babies with their tanks or even people for that matter. Georgia went in and supposedly 44 civilians were killed, not 2000.

[Ska Wars]

Russia handed over some bodies of Georgian troops today that were found in Ossetia. Of the 40 or so bodies only 3 were identifiable and around a dozen showed signs of torture (No source yet that isn't in Polish but I'll post one as soon as I find).

Ring any bells? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cle ... n_Abkhazia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia)

[Puddle]

Can't find anything on that ska.

[Stephenson]

Heres a few pictures from the main city:
http://osinform.ru/foto/7766-foto-razru ... eroja.html (http://osinform.ru/foto/7766-foto-razrushennogo-goroda-geroja.html)

page takes awhile to load.

NSFW (dead/bloody bodies):
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551

NSFW 2, more combat related than civilian:
http://milkavkaz.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12634

[Puddle]

Nice Find Steven.

Russia is supposed to be pulling out, hmm..
They are up to something. I'm still not sure exactly what.

[Ska Wars]

Georgian's are reporting Russian troops destroying industrial buildings such as power sub stations and water pumps. 23 Police officers were also seen being taken away blind folded and bound from Gori by Russian troops. Russian is denying this so far but apparently a Reuters photographer got pictures of their arrest (first one to find them gets + reps).

If there reports are true Russia seems to be trying their hand at a bit of scorched earth policy.

[Puddle]

Georgian's are reporting Russian troops destroying industrial buildings such as power sub stations and water pumps. 23 Police officers were also seen being taken away blind folded and bound from Gori by Russian troops. Russian is denying this so far but apparently a Reuters photographer got pictures of their arrest (first one to find them gets + reps).

If there reports are true Russia seems to be trying their hand at a bit of scorched earth policy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080819/wl_ ... ia_poti_dc (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080819/wl_nm/georgia_ossetia_poti_dc)

Reuters has an article on the distruction...
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/ ... dChannel=0 (http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKMCH95141120080819?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0)

[Guy Montag]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 51,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,grossbild-1274869-572951,00.html)

Haha.

[Stephenson]

Rice is one ugly stupid bitch in my opinion.

[Puddle]

The jeff o'neil show aired a parody on her comments over russia. Stating they can't behave like they did in the cold war. It was great.
Somebody get me a hockey stick I've got some food stuck in my teeth.

:D

Edit:
I read thet the ruskies have threatind Poland with military action over the missles.

[Cheeto]

Edit:
I read thet the ruskies have threatind Poland with military action over the missles.
Threatened with nuclear action, no less.

10 missiles, meant for defense, designed to shoot down god awful weapons of nuclear destruction, that won't even be turned on when installed, that don't even have an explosive warhead at all. That's what Russia is bitching about.

[Ska Wars]

I read thet the ruskies have threatind Poland with military action over the missles.

Not exactly. As I said before, Russia threatened that if Poland houses these missile bases they will point their nukes at them. Which to me is a pretty lame threat as I don't believe for a second that Russia ever stopped pointing nukes at the NATO countries and especially Poland.

[Puddle]

They just frose military ties with NATO.
Not entirly unexpected. Considering NATO suspended formal contacts a day before.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315674/

They are not pulling out that fast eyetha.

[Burris]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7574850.stm

It looks as though even Russia's best friend is getting weary.

[Buglunch]

Many of those Russian tanks have "Chechnya" sprayed on them.